Richard Ramos - Crouching Tiger, Hidden Gundam! (gaijin@i-manila.com.ph)
Mon, 19 Mar 2001 00:43:38 +0800


Not to be snide, But could this be just a case of insecurity that some of
the critics - who are animators, it seems - may lose their job because they
can't adapt?

Because if that's not the reason...damn, they need to be more open minded.
I am actually more impressed with the design of Batman and the OLD superman
cartoons than I am by Disney in general. I mean, yeah, Disney's got the
emotional blackmail and the killer emotional sequences, but anime -- when it
is good -- can beat the crap out of them. Notice, I am not defending all
anime, since anime is just as varied as western cartoons, which means that
there are really sucky ones, and there are ally good ones. And a lot of
in-between.

----- Original Message -----
From: garrick lee <goner4sure@yahoo.com>
To: <gundam@aeug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [gundam] Three reviews of Gundam by critics(Non Wing fans)

>
> --- Federico Makabenta <yenm@iconn.com.ph> wrote:
> > This is OT now. My last say is here.
> >
> > Back to where we started:
> >
> > It was the Kou carrot scene alone that was reviewed
> > in Stardust - one of the
> > least groundbreaking scenes in Gundam for heaven's
> > sake. Imagine what kind
> > of comments they would have made had they only seen
> > the Final Episode of the
> > battle between Neue Ziel and the Orchis.
> >
>
> well, as one of the animators so disdainfully
> commented -- big battling robots and explosions aren't
> her (?) cup of tea. the animator has already written
> off robot anime without even knowing what it is.
>
> >
> > "they speak of weight and movement and illusion of
> > life, shadows and muscle...but disney and warner
> > brothers animation never had those. "
> >
> > A sweeping generalization at least to me.
>
> oy, hey, they started it. :P
>
> they should not, in my opinion, brag about something
> that they themselves don't even have as consistent
> standards.
>
> >Please
> > study and watch Fantasia,
> > Snow White and especially Tarzan plus some other
> > Disney flicks available for
> > rent on a videostore. You'll find that shadows and
> > muscle are definitely
> > part of their repertoire. Illusion of life is too
> > abstract to argue on - and
> > in fact I feel this is the root of our disagreement.
>
> well, as abet said -- what illusion of life? turning
> your head while blinking 5 times and your mouth wide
> open?
>
> and i have watched a ton of disney and warner brothers
> as a kid too. i really have nothing against them
> (neither am i suitably impressed, as a viewer), but
> when push comes to shove, when animators start
> pointing fingers and spouting bullcrap about japanese
> animation, i know which side of the ocean i'm taking.
>
>
> > > sorry, i think i've been proven right. to hear
> > those
> > > egghead critics bash anime for its lack of
> > knowledge
> > > on muscles and weight is utter crap. disney drew
> > > tarzan physique with as much exaggerated and
> > CARTOONY
> > > (mis)proportion of the human anatomy as anime
> > does.
> >
> > Really? Try watching the Limited DVD edition of
> > Tarzan and its "making of"
> > sequences to show how much they've actually
> > integrated human anatomy into
> > him. Misproportions occured in some of the action
> > scenes but that was to
> > suit some of the extreme angles they took. Look at
> > the Leopard sequence
> > again.
> >
> > And don't tell me misproportions don't occur in
> > anime. They do, they're in
> > fact masters of cheating in animation. I think its
> > more your eye got
> > conditioned to watching anime as a standard form
> > like those of the animators
> > who watched what they do as a standard form. Anime
> > heads are larger than
> > most human heads, but why do they do it? My best
> > guess is to catch the eye.
>
> uh...are you editing what i wrote, fed? :P
>
> i explicitly said that it's a case of the pot calling
> the kettle black. meaning that i acknowledged the
> exaggerations that occur in anime, and i think that
> western animation honking on anime is ridiculous.
>
>
> >
> > > as far as weight is concerned, i've seen better
> > > representations of weight in the old 80's
> > NON-DISNEY
> > > cartoons than disney movies (albeit some of them
> > are
> > > rotoscope animation...which purist animators
> > probably
> > > disdain...but it's not like i give a rat's
> > patoot).
> >
> > Rotoscope ironically didn't work for LOTR movie to
> > general audiences btw.
>
> i know. i seem to be a minority. i liked rotoscope
> animation a lot. talk about weight of movement and
> realism of movement.
>
>
> > Hmm, there must be something about eye conditioning
> > to a medium - so that
> > the moment you change the medium like when animated
> > features with CG like
> > Titan A.E. or Reboot come along, there's a process
> > of familiarization before
> > accepting it as standard.
> >
> > I think it's the same for Anime/Western animation
> > conflict we're having now.
> > I have heard several arguments on the Western vs.
> > Anime debate before. Half
> > of the evidence is bogus on both sides actually. I
> > just feel its safer to
> > let the audience decide where they want to stick to.
>
> we ARE the audience. and we're voicing our choices in
> no uncertain terms here. :P
>
> >
> > Besides, they only got to see three scenes. Not even
> > an episode. Just three
> > scenes. Let me go back to that. I'm pretty sure that
> > the animators here
> > aren't biased to Japanese animation in general.
>
> well, the animators quoted in the critique sure were.
> you may think it's jumping to conclusions, but i
> believe it's a logical conclusion on my part. you
> don't simply blast away "i don't care how many noses i
> put out of joint with these comments" along with
> saying how the influence of japanese animation is
> deteriorating the animation standard. duh.
>
> the animator has either seen a lot of japanese
> animation or is assuming a lot and talking out of his
> ass.
>
> >The
> > Disney staff have come
> > out publicly in worship of Hayao Miyazaki before,
> > and Disney is the industry
> > standard. (still doesn't explain the Lion King's
> > Ki---err--- Simba) I don't
> > think these animators are any less reasonable. They
> > only saw three scenes. I
> > don't expect them to know all anime right?
> >
>
> right.
>
> but it does not justify them coming up with
> half-cooked ignorant criticisms like they always do.
>
> -garr
>
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