garrick lee (
Mon, 19 Mar 2001 18:01:16 -0800 (PST)

--- Federico Makabenta <> wrote:
> This is OT now. My last say is here.
> Back to where we started:
> It was the Kou carrot scene alone that was reviewed
> in Stardust - one of the
> least groundbreaking scenes in Gundam for heaven's
> sake. Imagine what kind
> of comments they would have made had they only seen
> the Final Episode of the
> battle between Neue Ziel and the Orchis.

well, as one of the animators so disdainfully
commented -- big battling robots and explosions aren't
her (?) cup of tea. the animator has already written
off robot anime without even knowing what it is.

> "they speak of weight and movement and illusion of
> life, shadows and muscle...but disney and warner
> brothers animation never had those. "
> A sweeping generalization at least to me.

oy, hey, they started it. :P

they should not, in my opinion, brag about something
that they themselves don't even have as consistent

> study and watch Fantasia,
> Snow White and especially Tarzan plus some other
> Disney flicks available for
> rent on a videostore. You'll find that shadows and
> muscle are definitely
> part of their repertoire. Illusion of life is too
> abstract to argue on - and
> in fact I feel this is the root of our disagreement.

well, as abet said -- what illusion of life? turning
your head while blinking 5 times and your mouth wide

and i have watched a ton of disney and warner brothers
as a kid too. i really have nothing against them
(neither am i suitably impressed, as a viewer), but
when push comes to shove, when animators start
pointing fingers and spouting bullcrap about japanese
animation, i know which side of the ocean i'm taking.

> > sorry, i think i've been proven right. to hear
> those
> > egghead critics bash anime for its lack of
> knowledge
> > on muscles and weight is utter crap. disney drew
> > tarzan physique with as much exaggerated and
> > (mis)proportion of the human anatomy as anime
> does.
> Really? Try watching the Limited DVD edition of
> Tarzan and its "making of"
> sequences to show how much they've actually
> integrated human anatomy into
> him. Misproportions occured in some of the action
> scenes but that was to
> suit some of the extreme angles they took. Look at
> the Leopard sequence
> again.
> And don't tell me misproportions don't occur in
> anime. They do, they're in
> fact masters of cheating in animation. I think its
> more your eye got
> conditioned to watching anime as a standard form
> like those of the animators
> who watched what they do as a standard form. Anime
> heads are larger than
> most human heads, but why do they do it? My best
> guess is to catch the eye.

uh...are you editing what i wrote, fed? :P

i explicitly said that it's a case of the pot calling
the kettle black. meaning that i acknowledged the
exaggerations that occur in anime, and i think that
western animation honking on anime is ridiculous.

> > as far as weight is concerned, i've seen better
> > representations of weight in the old 80's
> > cartoons than disney movies (albeit some of them
> are
> > rotoscope animation...which purist animators
> probably
> > disdain...but it's not like i give a rat's
> patoot).
> Rotoscope ironically didn't work for LOTR movie to
> general audiences btw.

i know. i seem to be a minority. i liked rotoscope
animation a lot. talk about weight of movement and
realism of movement.

> Hmm, there must be something about eye conditioning
> to a medium - so that
> the moment you change the medium like when animated
> features with CG like
> Titan A.E. or Reboot come along, there's a process
> of familiarization before
> accepting it as standard.
> I think it's the same for Anime/Western animation
> conflict we're having now.
> I have heard several arguments on the Western vs.
> Anime debate before. Half
> of the evidence is bogus on both sides actually. I
> just feel its safer to
> let the audience decide where they want to stick to.

we ARE the audience. and we're voicing our choices in
no uncertain terms here. :P

> Besides, they only got to see three scenes. Not even
> an episode. Just three
> scenes. Let me go back to that. I'm pretty sure that
> the animators here
> aren't biased to Japanese animation in general.

well, the animators quoted in the critique sure were.
you may think it's jumping to conclusions, but i
believe it's a logical conclusion on my part. you
don't simply blast away "i don't care how many noses i
put out of joint with these comments" along with
saying how the influence of japanese animation is
deteriorating the animation standard. duh.

the animator has either seen a lot of japanese
animation or is assuming a lot and talking out of his

> Disney staff have come
> out publicly in worship of Hayao Miyazaki before,
> and Disney is the industry
> standard. (still doesn't explain the Lion King's
> Ki---err--- Simba) I don't
> think these animators are any less reasonable. They
> only saw three scenes. I
> don't expect them to know all anime right?


but it does not justify them coming up with
half-cooked ignorant criticisms like they always do.


Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.

Gundam Mailing List Archives are available at

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.0b3 on Tue Mar 20 2001 - 11:01:27 JST