garrick lee (goner4sure@yahoo.com)
Mon, 19 Mar 2001 18:01:16 -0800 (PST)


--- Federico Makabenta <yenm@iconn.com.ph> wrote:
> This is OT now. My last say is here.
>
> Back to where we started:
>
> It was the Kou carrot scene alone that was reviewed
> in Stardust - one of the
> least groundbreaking scenes in Gundam for heaven's
> sake. Imagine what kind
> of comments they would have made had they only seen
> the Final Episode of the
> battle between Neue Ziel and the Orchis.
>

well, as one of the animators so disdainfully
commented -- big battling robots and explosions aren't
her (?) cup of tea. the animator has already written
off robot anime without even knowing what it is.

>
> "they speak of weight and movement and illusion of
> life, shadows and muscle...but disney and warner
> brothers animation never had those. "
>
> A sweeping generalization at least to me.

oy, hey, they started it. :P

they should not, in my opinion, brag about something
that they themselves don't even have as consistent
standards.

>Please
> study and watch Fantasia,
> Snow White and especially Tarzan plus some other
> Disney flicks available for
> rent on a videostore. You'll find that shadows and
> muscle are definitely
> part of their repertoire. Illusion of life is too
> abstract to argue on - and
> in fact I feel this is the root of our disagreement.

well, as abet said -- what illusion of life? turning
your head while blinking 5 times and your mouth wide
open?

and i have watched a ton of disney and warner brothers
as a kid too. i really have nothing against them
(neither am i suitably impressed, as a viewer), but
when push comes to shove, when animators start
pointing fingers and spouting bullcrap about japanese
animation, i know which side of the ocean i'm taking.

 
> > sorry, i think i've been proven right. to hear
> those
> > egghead critics bash anime for its lack of
> knowledge
> > on muscles and weight is utter crap. disney drew
> > tarzan physique with as much exaggerated and
> CARTOONY
> > (mis)proportion of the human anatomy as anime
> does.
>
> Really? Try watching the Limited DVD edition of
> Tarzan and its "making of"
> sequences to show how much they've actually
> integrated human anatomy into
> him. Misproportions occured in some of the action
> scenes but that was to
> suit some of the extreme angles they took. Look at
> the Leopard sequence
> again.
>
> And don't tell me misproportions don't occur in
> anime. They do, they're in
> fact masters of cheating in animation. I think its
> more your eye got
> conditioned to watching anime as a standard form
> like those of the animators
> who watched what they do as a standard form. Anime
> heads are larger than
> most human heads, but why do they do it? My best
> guess is to catch the eye.

uh...are you editing what i wrote, fed? :P

i explicitly said that it's a case of the pot calling
the kettle black. meaning that i acknowledged the
exaggerations that occur in anime, and i think that
western animation honking on anime is ridiculous.

>
> > as far as weight is concerned, i've seen better
> > representations of weight in the old 80's
> NON-DISNEY
> > cartoons than disney movies (albeit some of them
> are
> > rotoscope animation...which purist animators
> probably
> > disdain...but it's not like i give a rat's
> patoot).
>
> Rotoscope ironically didn't work for LOTR movie to
> general audiences btw.

i know. i seem to be a minority. i liked rotoscope
animation a lot. talk about weight of movement and
realism of movement.

> Hmm, there must be something about eye conditioning
> to a medium - so that
> the moment you change the medium like when animated
> features with CG like
> Titan A.E. or Reboot come along, there's a process
> of familiarization before
> accepting it as standard.
>
> I think it's the same for Anime/Western animation
> conflict we're having now.
> I have heard several arguments on the Western vs.
> Anime debate before. Half
> of the evidence is bogus on both sides actually. I
> just feel its safer to
> let the audience decide where they want to stick to.

we ARE the audience. and we're voicing our choices in
no uncertain terms here. :P

>
> Besides, they only got to see three scenes. Not even
> an episode. Just three
> scenes. Let me go back to that. I'm pretty sure that
> the animators here
> aren't biased to Japanese animation in general.

well, the animators quoted in the critique sure were.
you may think it's jumping to conclusions, but i
believe it's a logical conclusion on my part. you
don't simply blast away "i don't care how many noses i
put out of joint with these comments" along with
saying how the influence of japanese animation is
deteriorating the animation standard. duh.

the animator has either seen a lot of japanese
animation or is assuming a lot and talking out of his
ass.

>The
> Disney staff have come
> out publicly in worship of Hayao Miyazaki before,
> and Disney is the industry
> standard. (still doesn't explain the Lion King's
> Ki---err--- Simba) I don't
> think these animators are any less reasonable. They
> only saw three scenes. I
> don't expect them to know all anime right?
>

right.

but it does not justify them coming up with
half-cooked ignorant criticisms like they always do.

-garr

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