Andrew Dynon (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:58:26 +1100
Some good points in your reply. I was emotional when I made that rant - I
had other things annoying me, and Shinigami shutting down made me snap. I
didn't mean to imply that any negative comments about Wing were "trolling",
or that everyone should worship (or even like) Wing, or that I myself think
Wing is perfect (there are several aspects I think need improvement). And
I certainly didn't mean to imply that the GML had sunk to what Kumiko
Essentially, what I made a fumbled attempt at doing was warning that the
attitudes which Kumiko encountered can only hurt Gundam fandom, that there
is a danger that things could get to that stage, and that we should be
careful (I was also venting some frustrations).
BTW, strangely, three of my four favourite Gundam series are 90s ones (V,
Wing and Turn A - the other is First Gundam). But then again, I don't
regard myself as a good critic - I LIKE too many things, and too many of
the things I like don't seem to be popular.
At 05:48 PM 2/26/01 -0600, you wrote:
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>Oh come on! I have been on this mailing list since long before Wing
>even aired in America, and I have never seen any "bashing" at all! In
>fact, what I have mainly seen recently, is Wing fans characterizing
>anyone who doesn't like Wing as some sort of Troll. There are 20
>years of Gundam. Of that 20 years of Gundam, most people don't
>particularly care for ZZ, G, V or W, but you don't see endless
>debates about how much ZZ bashing goes on.
>For God sakes people, get over your thin skins! Just because someone
>else doesn't like a show that you do like, that does not make them
>some kind of villain, just waiting to crush you. Believe it or not,
>someone can dislike Wing, or any other series, for reasons that have
>nothing at all to do with your ego!
>I decided ten years ago that Gundam had pretty much run out of steam
>creatively, and have spent the past ten years being pleasantly
>surprised every once in a while, but for the most part feeling like I
>pretty much hit the nail on the head. How long are Gundam fans going
>to have to walk on eggshells, so as not to hurt the feelings of the
>fans of a show that is over five years old? Wing originally aired in
>Japan quite a while ago, so instead of getting all bent out of shape
>about all the hardcore Gundam fans who don't like your favorite show,
>why don't you stop and question why it is that a lot of people, who
>have had five years to decide what they think of the show, still
>don't like it.
>I am constantly seeing comments about "UC elitists," but the fact is
>that a large number of these supposed "UC elitists" have seen more
>Gundam shows(AC and UC), than the rest of the American public. If
>someone has been a fan of a show for twenty years, they have every
>right to feel they know the series a little better than someone who
>only started watching the show a year ago. There is this omnipresent
>implication that all the "UC people" never gave Wing a chance, and so
>are unfairly biased against it, and those who watch it. I have yet to
>see anyone really take into account that "UC people" have had YEARS
>to decide what they thought about Wing.
>You talk about intolerance and pettiness, but then you imply that
>being tolerant and magnanimous means not voicing any opinions that
>cast Wing in a bad light! How petty is that?
>I have never once been involved in any UC vs. AC debate, but I am
>getting sick of seeing this constant Gundam Wing, false martyrdom. No
>one is persecuting you. Some people just don't think your favorite
>Gundam show is the best in the Gundam Universe. That is all there is
>to it, and having people disagree with you does not give you some
>special dispensation to have your opinion carry extra weight.
>If you want all of intolerance and pettiness to stop, then quit
>expecting everyone to kneel before the glory that is Gundam Wing!
>Some people think MSG is the best Gundam show ever, I think Zeta is
>the best, and yet others think Wing is the best. We are all entitled
>to our opinions, and I for one will not be browbeaten into staying
>quiet about my favorite, or least favorite, show, just because it
>might cause some Wing fans to label me as intolerant or petty.
>If you want to know why a lot of the "UC elitists" have such a bad
>attitude about "Wingers," it has nothing to do with the show Gundam
>Wing. It is because of the attitude that the Toonami inspired fans
>bring to the community. What I mean by that is; the AC/UC division,
>and the existence of this list, both predate the US airing of Gundam
>Wing, and the AC/UC issue was never a topic of particularly heated
>debate on this list. There were plenty of discussions of the merits
>of Wing or X or G before any Gundam had aired on Toonami, and it
>never turned to name calling. Then along comes the US launch of
>Gundam Wing, and suddenly you can not say a single bad thing about
>Wing without being assured of a 100+ posts about how unfair it is
>that all these "UC people" are so high-handed, and biased against
>Wing, and that is the best case scenario. At worst you have people
>accusing you of anything from trolling, to bigotry, to homophobia.
>Now instead of having a neat resource for those of us who take Gundam
>more seriously than we should probably take a cartoon, we have a 200+
>posts a day about a ton of inflammatory crap and name calling.
>So please, if you want to preach about tolerance and purity of
>intent, don't direct your lecture to the "UC elitists." We "UC
>people" have managed to have a pretty amiable segment of fandom for
>20 years now.
>The goal is to overcome the deliberate nature of the process.
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]On
>Behalf Of Andrew Dynon
>Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 1:32 PM
>Subject: [gundam] [RANT] Shinigami.org, and Gundam fandom
>I just discovered that www.shinigami.org has shut down. This was
>THE best Gundam Wing site on the web, and it truly a sad event.
>reasons for shutting down her site highlight a major problem within
>fandom: Intolerance and pettiness.
>What happened to Kumiko was on a different ML, and I haven't seen
>here that sunk to that level (although I don't have time to read
>post), but I have seen a fair amount of bigotry on this ML as well,
>particularly by UC fans directed at Gundam Wing and its fans. I'm
>first to admit that Wing is not perfect, but some of the Wing-bashing
>have seen makes me ashamed to admit to liking UC Gundam (and some of
>Wing fans feel obliged to bash UC back). There are other issues
>there has been similarly bad behaviour over, but this is the major
>Please, all this is capable of doing is inflaming opinions and
>people away from fandom. It's doing nobody any good (except trolls
>to start flame wars), so can we please end this silliness?
>Watt-Evans' Law of Literary Creation: There is no idea so stupid or
>hackneyed that a sufficiently-talented writer can't get a good story
>Feist's Corollary: There is no idea so brilliant or original that a
>sufficiently-untalented writer can't screw it up.
>Morrison's Corollary: There is no idea that a sufficiently-talented
>has made into a good story that can't become annoying in the sequels.
>Holliday's Corollary: There is no plot so stunningly original that a
>journalist can't make it sound hackneyed.
>Gundam Mailing List Archives are available at http://gundam.aeug.org/
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>Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>
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>Gundam Mailing List Archives are available at http://gundam.aeug.org/
Watt-Evans' Law of Literary Creation: There is no idea so stupid or
hackneyed that a sufficiently-talented writer can't get a good story out of
Feist's Corollary: There is no idea so brilliant or original that a
sufficiently-untalented writer can't screw it up.
Morrison's Corollary: There is no idea that a sufficiently-talented writer
has made into a good story that can't become annoying in the sequels.
Holliday's Corollary: There is no plot so stunningly original that a
journalist can't make it sound hackneyed.
Gundam Mailing List Archives are available at http://gundam.aeug.org/
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.0b3 on Tue Feb 27 2001 - 18:56:40 JST