garrick lee (
Tue, 12 Dec 2000 22:17:23 -0800 (PST)

--- Brett Jensen <> wrote:
> garrick lee wrote:
> > so, i suspect cheese factor has less to do with
> 0083
> > problems than poor writing does (c'mon, south
> > burning's death has my vote for the all time
> dumbest
> Oh I suppose people don't die in really stupid ways
> thru no fault of
> their own during war time?


there's a difference in showing people dying stupid
deaths through no fault of their own, and poor writing
that kills characters off because the plot demands it.

south burning's death is basically
  shabby writing which coulda been done better.

alan's death early on in 0083 is a better example of
death being indiscriminate. unfortunately the
character is not developed at all, giving the viewer
no reason for getting attached.

heck, ben dixon's (forget his jap name, sorry :P)
death in macross tv series is a far better example of
horror of war and how death doesn't choose anybody.
he basically had no way out (of course, you can argue
that the nutty guy cheated death more times than he
deserved prior to the barrier overload death...but
that's another thing ;P).

fokker died a tragic death (tv death) in a way that
was equally cool as it was equally stooopid (something
no character has ever been able to come close to in a
while), but not a poorly written plot-contrived death
as south burning. :P

> > between a well written dork (kou) and a well
> written
> > peace loving casanova (shiro), i side with the
> latter.
> > :P
> Oh yes between the shocking realism of Zaku VS ball
> combat, and the well
> written jail-bait nude scene, 08th MS has all the
> bases covered. A true
> classic.^_^

well, hey, those are two opposite extremes. :)

kou in a dandy gp01 falling short at gato's feet,
while shiro in a ball saves the day.

and i like well written jail-bait nude scenes. :P

*stomps richie before he can comment*

> I can't help raving about the great continuuity
> keeping of the timing of
> Giren's speech and the fact that there are GMs and
> running around so early in the war. No plot holes
> here! ^o^

no argument there. it IS a retro side story, and the
fault lies outside of the story as bandai just had to
cram the story in. i can forgive that.

> And of course there's the realism of Shiro risking
> his ass to give aid
> and comfort to the enemy. and this is just the first
> few episodes.
> STUPENDOUS! (barf)

would you prefer kou, the hotshot wannabe who is
unable to ask his own tech support out on a movie?
i'll root for shiro anytime. :)

> Cima's death was well deserved and rather funny IMO.
> (I do like Cima, but
> if you charge the big MA, you die.)

oooooh, well.....yeah....:P

> > yeah, and they both died ignoble stupid deaths.
> Again see: futility and horror of War. Look under
> Chein Agi.

i know that. see above response. my gripe with the
way the 0083 characters died is because they were
killed off because they didn't fit the existing
timeline. not because of the horrors of war and grim
reaper not being picky about who he/she/it chooses.

scale down characters, and scale down the stories.
you can't fit epic stories into established canon,
because epic stories make big bangs by their very
nature. i have nothing much against 0083 (i enjoyed
it, and hey, the show's got kawamori's contribution,
so i'm bowing down, :P).

> It's a bit more complicated than that. It has to do
> with a feeling of
> being lied to.

why? nobody took pains to conceal the fact that
robotech was indeed a pastiche. the target audience
never cared at the time.

i grew up, discovered the mishmash job, got let down
for a moment, and thought "by goomba, this is an
amazing work of cut & paste genius!". i was actually
able to appreciate robotech more (and be more
forgiving of all it's flubs) from knowing about it's
bastardous origins.

>And for me, it really has to do with
> the fact that
> Robotech is still gaining fans today, even though
> The perfect collection
> tapes of macross were out, even with the DVD sets
> coming. Robotech served
> it's purpose in the 80s when anime was tough to come
> by, but now that
> anime is readily available it should be put to rest.

i know how that feels, but we can't decide for
everybody else. as long as people don't go around
saying that macross ripped off battletech (yes, i've
heard of those), i've no beef with them liking
robotech over macross. i'm only pissed that less
die-hard macross fans will be grabbing the dvd's while
i'm gonna stew over with envy.

> > what? is it supposed to be a mark of maturing as
> a
> > fan? geez.
> Is bashing 0083 the sign of a mature Gundam fan? no
> offense. ^_-


*farts in brett's general direction*



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