Roland Thigpen (
22 Nov 2000 15:00:58 -0000

On Wed, 22 Nov 2000 09:57:47 GMT Richie Ramos <> wrote:
>>And I can, because I can. Maybe you don't understand how it feels to grow up
>not understanding others and being so shy and afraid of getting hurt that you
>don't open up to others and have few friends, but I do...because I was that
>way when I was younger, especially at Shinji's age.
>uhm, me, I grew up as part of an Honors program in school, where your classmates
>are all trying their best to be number one, and that means no one is really
>your friend. Imagine knowing people really well, but knowing that they're not
>your friends unless you really have tested their friendship. It was a pretty
>lonely childhood, compounded by the fact that I was by nature a bookish kid.

That sounds familar....oh yeah, I was the same. I was in my school's honors program, and could have been number one in all of those, but I simply didn't care. I did well enough to suite myself. If that meant beating the others, so be it. If it meant not being on top, so be it. I simply didn't (and still really don't) care.

>Add to that, when I was a kid, I had a congenital heart condition that made
>me stay at home all day if I wasn't in school. Remember "Jack"? yep, I know
>how that felt like.

Well, as for me, I was just born 2 months premature, not expected to live, caused my mother so many complications that she could never have another child, and now have the possibility of heart problems from both sides of my family and diabetes from one looming over me. Add to that some frailty when I was younger, mixed in with little to no exercise, and well...but I wasn't as bad as it seemed it was for you.

I'm just too much a mix of both of my parents, ie, too stubborn, to let that kind of thing stop me for long.

>And then add to that the fact that I figured out I was bi in high school, in
>an all-boy's school.

Ok, I can't even touch that one because I simply don't know what it is like. Although in some of our classes, we had discussions on the subject, none of us truly knew what that kind of thing could be like, so we were talking about it from a single viewpoint. Not really a fair thing, I know, but it was a way to get some feelings out in the open.

>and then, my first serious lover committed suicide, and I was partly responsible.

Or that one. Although I did have at least 2 students in my high school commit suicide, and I went to a private school where my graduating class numbered 32. We were all pretty close. Well, as close as I let anyone get at that time.

>and then add to that all the violence and pressures of living in a middle class
>household in a country that has a revolution every decade.

Or that one either. All we had was rednecks and racial problems to some extent in my area. Maybe a gang or two.

>and then lately, the one person whom I hoped to spend the rest of my life with
>either as a best friend or as a wife (sounds like Riker of ST:TNG) married one
>of my high school friends.

Been through that, but as I see it, I love her enough to let her decide for herself who is best for her.

>and I am happily alive! alive! and to let off steam, I am in a metal band,
>and then I have my lover, and I have enjoiyed my life -- even in the face of
>utter sorrow.
>These are a few of the reasons why I feel that Shinji was a bit weak. I know,
>in a certain sense, how he must have felt, but when he started giving in to
>his depression, I would literally scream at the screen and be frustrated. I
>suppose it's just that I know it can be survived. Forgive me if I feel this

No problem...we all deal with these things differently. Why Shinji most likely gave in to his problems was that he was one of those who suffers from clinical depression. Not everyone is strong enough to stave off its effects (I should know, I've prob come close to suffering from it myself from time to time, but pull myself from it by surrounding myself with good friends or other things to get my mind off what is depressing me...doesn't always work, but it helps). The thing is, outside of NERV and two friends from school, Shinji really had nothing, so he had no way to stave off this kind of thing, especially after Touji was nearly killed. It's a poor way to live your life, but some people do exist that way.

>He could have grown much stronger in the series, without anyone's help. all
>he had to do was realize that life is what you make of it. I suppose in the
>end he did do that, but it's still a far cry from living. life should be lived
>to the fullest.

Oh, I agree. But not everyone is strong enough to realize that.

>by the way, i just came back from the doctor, and he says that even though all
>four of my heart valves are leaking, he thinks I'm too stubborn to keel over
>before I reach 80, LOL!
> I said above, I was stubborn like that from day 1.

>peace man! just me rambling, and my apologies to all.

No biggie. My apologies to anyone who didn't want to read this kind of message either (but I think most by now should know to delete messages of this thread if they don't want to read them). It's not all that hard. Hell, I delete about 75% or more of the messages from the list anyways, as I don't care about the model threads.

>>And Amuro also had how many years to change? All that took place in Eva happened
>in the span of just maybe 2 or 3 months.
>Admittedly, that would have been hell. and maybe that was the point.

I think so.

>>And of course, Char never really changed throughout the series.
>how very true. he just became more truly what he was.


>>And of course, Amuro was a newtype, so he was able to somewhat see into others,
>so he didn't have this whole relations problem as bad as Shinji.
>actually, it was also a hindrance in Zeta, I think, or was it ZZ?

Well, I haven't seen all of Zeta yet (or any of ZZ, but I didn't think he was in that?), so I don't know.

>>s best friends/loves kill herself to save him, and has had to kill someone
>he really cared about himself all in the span of a couple months. Did Amuro
>EVER go through that kind of thing? NO! All Amuro did was kill the faceless
>masses, and accidently kill his soulmate!
>don't knock it about soulmates. that can be a very painful experience.

I know. Maybe not as well as you might, but I know. But Amuro has always been a stronger character than Shinji, which is one of the reasons I think many on the list don't like the latter. He's pretty much the Eva equivalent of Kou.

Me, I've almost killed a cousin of mine, who was the closest thing to a brother I had growing up. It was in a fit of rage when I was about 7 or 8 (he's a year younger than me). I picked him up, and with his mother's permission and both her and my mother looking on, threw him over his old hobby horse and proceded to choke him for nearly taking out my eye with a piece of thrown bark. It was as close as I have ever come to taking a human life, but it was also one of those growing points (as I think our parents knew). Should everyone do this? HELL NO! But my mother and his mother trusted me to do the right thing in the end. And it did help me grow up much faster than many kids I knew (it was probably also one of the reasons I felt seperated from most of the kids in my school). I didn't kill him, but towards the end, I think I could feel him starting to slide in that direction. It shocked me enough to stop.

>>The point of Eva, at least to me, was to look at how people relate to each
>other, and goes into what makes a human, human. That's why I LOVE the tv series
>ending. Hell, that's why I love series like Serial Experiments Lain, Key the
>Metal Idol, and even Bubblegum Crisis Tokyo 2040 seems to be getting into that
>question. Eva did a very good job of looking at the human condition, and making
>you ask questions about it. Does it give a straight answer? No...nor is it meant
>to. Each person must decide for him or herself what it means to be human, and
>how to relate to others. There is no set answer for everyone.
>Nice spread of anime there. I think with Eva, what happened was that they used
>extremes to illustrate the charcter points.

Agreed. Sometimes, the most effective way to get across a point is to use extremes, simply so there will be no mistaking what the characters are going through.

As for the anime spread, yeah I'd like to think I've seen a good spread. These were just the ones that came immediately to mind that dealt with the subject. I also have less serious stuff like Dirty Pair, Slayers, Captain Tylor, etc. (and just got through a day or so ago watching the first 9 eps of Outlaw Star...funny stuff that, although I'm still not sure of my opinion on Jean Starwind, the main character).

BTW, back to the thought of main characters not growing, and since I just finished watching the last of this series this past weekend...Cowboy Bebop...Faye grew, Jet grew (somewhat), hell, even Ed grew during the series...but Spike, he never changed. From beginning to end, he was always the same, and in the end (DON'T READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE SERIES AND PLAN TO, SPOILERS AHEAD).....that is what killed him.

And of course, as for other series, I could come up with multiple examples of main characters that don't grow, yet no one complains about them here.

But hey, this thing has gone on long enough. No need to beat a dead horse further than I've already done.


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