Lim Jyue (lim_jyue@pacific.net.sg)
Tue, 31 Oct 2000 01:11:15 +0800


At 11:18 10/29/2000 -0800, Mark Simmons wrote:
> Aw, c'mon... with the words "One Year War" and "Grand Re-unification
>Idea", it was only a matter of time. :-)

        A-hehehehe. That title is supposed to grab attention anyway. =)

>> Okie. I've done up the Gelgoog table too, just to make sure:
>> MS-14B OYW 76.8 79,900 1.04
> Note that the thrust is exactly 30% higher than the regular Gelgoog -
>the same increase originally claimed for Char's Zaku II.

        The B-type Gelgoog is supposed to be a high-mobility model of the
Gelgoog, so some increase in thrust is inevitable. However, the consistent
30% increase is a bit strange.

>So, in contrast to the 0080 specs, the Zeon mobile suits from 0083 are
>_underspec'd_.

        Considering the reputation of the Gelgoog in the OYW, underspec'ing
the Gelgoog by such a large amount is really bad. I suspect they simply
hacked-and-slashed the thrust amount to make the Fs look good. =)

> It's complicated by the fact that the Zeon mobile suits have
>historically been credited with waaaay too much propellant, pushing their
>full weight up so high that their thrust-to-weight ratios become pathetic.

        Considering the need of the Zeon military to create an equalizer to
the large numbers of warships the Federation had, the large amounts of
propellent may be necessary for Zeon MS tactical use. Namely, to enlarge the
operational circle of the MSes. However, Zeon MS aren't really built for
long missions; then again, neither are most modern fighter jets.

>The commonly-accepted specs for the standard One Year War mobile suits were
>first published in The Anime's third Z Gundam book, where a footnote explains
>that they made the numbers up themselves, inspired by Gundam Century.

        D'OH! And since these stats are likely the basis of the later shows
such as 0080 and 0083, we have a major problem if these stats are off to
begin with.

>However, Z-era suits like the Rick Dias are supposed to
>carry _more_ propellant than their One Year War ancestors.

        Why did the Z-era MSes need more propellant? With the majority of
these Z-era suit operating from MS carriers (as opposed to the "fixed"
asteroid bases of Zeon OYW), I do see the need for more propellant (mainly
to get back home), but Zeon MSes may had a need for larger propellant for
longer range operations.

>The Gelgoog, which shouldn't carry much more weapons payload than the
>Galbaldy Beta, would be carrying about _25 tons_ of propellant judging
>from The Anime's specs.

        Maybe not. You may have discounted the weapons weight -- after all,
weapons development have progressed quite a bit in the short (5+) years
between OYW and Z. Hence, it is possible the beam rifles carried by both the
Galbaldy Beta and the Gelgoog are of differing weights.

        Furthermore, we do know that armour material has improved over the
years, so that shield of the Gelgoog might have been substantially higher
weight than the Galbaldy's. All these will not have been included within the
base weight, but within the full weight.

        However, even with these "excuses", the fuel propellant weight is
still a bit high. Still, as I mentioned earlier, the tactical role of the
Gelgoog may require the extra propellant.

>(Hint: I have pretty much every book listed in the Gundam Project's goods
>section.)

        Sigh.. *prostrate before the great Mark Simmons*.

        (^_^)

>You'll note they list different (and more reasonable) values for thruster and
>generator output.

        Actually, if I had any reasonable idea as to what reasonable values
are for thruster and generator outputs, I won't be getting so many
corrections here. =)

        My main reference source is from the buggy Gundam Mechanics, as the
sources I really need is in limited supply here (and so is my money supply
=[). I can refer to MSV -- have both the Earth and Space books; are there
any other in that series? -- but the MSVs don't have a complete set of MSes
to begin with. So I have problems there.

        The Mecha Domain is a great help, but I don't have a 24/7 connection
to the 'net, so my access there is limited to some degree too. Still, the
problem is that I didn't expect that many problems with the Gundam Mechanics.

> No, it's true - the original specs list an extra six 7,000-kilogram
>thrusters for the Full Armor Alex. Remember what I said about primary
>sources. :-)

        Okie... *dig, dig*

        The specs I obtained from the actual 0080 series model kit's manual
is as follows:

        Thrusters: 35,000kg x2, 7,000kg x 2, 8,000kg x6. (6 8,000kg thrusters!)
        (Doesn't state if the values are for the NT-1, or the FA.)

        Now, a quick visual inspection of the model gives rise to an
interesting problem: where are all these thrusters?

        If we peg the big backpack thrusters as the twin 35,000kg thrusters,
and each leg's three exhausts are the 6 8,000kg thrusters, we are left with
the problem... which are the 7,000kg thrusters?

        So.. if we assume each leg's thrusters add to 7,000kg, we are left
with the problem.. where are other the 6 thrusters?

        Given that there is a tradition of counting all the thrust produced
by one leg as one thruster, I'm inclined to call the leg as 7,000kg thrust,
which leaves us with 6 unaccounted for thrusters -- which *may* just be the
6 "small" thrusters on the FA (especially since there wasn't any indication
on the manual as to whether the figures are for the FA or the NT-1).

        This means that the NT-1 could have as low a thrust as 84,000kg in
total, making a T/W ratio of 1.16 -- higher than the RX-79, but not so high
as to be unbelievable. This meant the FA version will have a thrust of
132,000kg, with a T/W ratio of 1.39. (Let's call this Scenario A.)

        For completeness, let's consider Scenario B.

        Assume each leg has 8,000kg x3 thrusters, meaning an NT-1 had a
total thrust of 118,000kg, with the FA still having a total of 132,000kg,
with help from the 2 7,000kg thrusters in the back. This meant a T/W of 1.63
for the NT-1, which is just a bit lower than the GP-01, the next MS in
chronological order. Slightly more believable.

        Unfortunately, there's just this one problem with Scenario B -- it
ignores the thrusters built into the NT's soles, whereas Scenario A already
incorporated them in. Scenario A does seem more pausible.

        I've tried to double check this with the MG kit manual -- useless;
MG kits seems to delibrately not include these figures. Even worse, they
labelled things that are clearly apogee motors as "sub-thrusters", confusing
the issue even more.

        All these assumption do have one flaw: they assume the FA version
includes some form of propulsion for the MS. But beyond those 6
"sub-thrusters" on the back of the armour, there is no obvious candidates
for additional propulsion units.

        The nice thing about assume this is that it puts the NT very close
to the trend line in my T/W ratio chart. =)

        What's the exact rating in your sources?

> Yes, and they're both wrong. They probably copied the info from the
>error-riddled MS Encyclopedia, which lists the Full Armor Alex's
>thrusters as "Normal mode + 7,000 kg x 2".

        Let me guess; The MS Encyclopedia also listed the Normal Mode as
"35,000kg x 2, 8,000kg x 6"? Went along with my Scenario B.. =)

> The original specs list the thrusters as 45,000 kg x 4 (in backpack)
>and 13,500 kg x 4 (in feet and legs).

        Rats. I think my old GP-01Fb kit's manual got trashed, so I no
longer have that "primary" source. =) Anyone else has it?

        I'll take your word for it then.

> They were guessing (the figures are labeled as "estimates"). The Ez8
>model kit came out right around the same time, establishing the official
>specs, which have been echoed in all subsequent publications.

        Okie.. that'll explain it, as I don't have that kit. So you do
consider model kit manual's specs as "official"?

> Nope, it's jet-propelled, so it mostly uses air for reaction mass. (The
>backpack and skirt thrusters may be regular rockets, but it has so much
>thrust that it may be able to hover using the leg jets alone.)

        The Gouf will still need jet fuel to run those jets, correct? That
particular Gouf still needs to have lots of fuel to run both kinds of
thrusters (assuming there are two kinds of thrusters). For all we know, that
Gouf is a flying fuel tank..

-------------
Lim Jyue
ICQ: 24737555

I am careful not to confuse excellence with perfection.
Excellence I can reach for; perfection is God's business.

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