Lim Jyue (lim_jyue@pacific.net.sg)
Sun, 29 Oct 2000 23:09:08 +0800


At 14:09 10/28/2000 -0700, Mark Simmons wrote:

        *sob*

        The great Mark Simmons denigns to grace his presence in a thread I
started! =)

        */sob*

        (^_^)

> The Zeon ones are, at the very least. Note that 0083's specs guys
>halved the thrust of the Rick Dom II and Gelgoog Jaeger (in the form of
>Cima's Gelgoog Marine, whose specs are otherwise identical) before going
>on to overdo it with their own crazily overpowered Gundams.

        Okie. I've done up the Gelgoog table too, just to make sure:

        Type Source Weight (t) Thrust (kg) Thrust/Weight
        MS-14A OYW 73.3 61,500 0.84
        MS-14B OYW 76.8 79,900 1.04
        MS-14C OYW 79.8 73,900 0.93
        MS-14F 0083 81.3 55,000 0.68
        MS-14Fs 0083 80.0 89,500 1.12
        MS-14JG 0080 80.3 178,500 2.22
        MS-14J ZZ 82.6 150,800 1.83

        Most of these stats are from Gundam Mechanics, and where possible I
verified via MSV too. The Gelgoog is an ideal case for this as the entire
Gelgoog line has always been space-borne, without land variants to give
strange values, and the line of Gelgoogs extend all the way to ZZ, which
gives us a nice perspective of the evolution. Furthermore, the development
of the Gelgoog is almost exclusively denoted by the variant types, which
makes comparison much simpler.

        As can be seen above, the 0080 Gelgoog is clearly overpowered -- no
Federation MS by then could match it. The values are really too high to be
believable.

        However, the claims of a Gelgoog being a Zeon Gundam-equivalent is a
bit suspect, since the base type, the MS-14A, could not match a RX-78 in
this department. Both the B-type, a high mobility type, and the C-type, a
cannon(!) type can match a Gundam, but those are specialized units. Heck, a
GM could outrun a A-type. =) Hmm. Is it me, or is the GM built for running?

        The shocker is the F-type. The performance of this MS is so poor, a
good number of Zaku variants could easily out-perform it. Seems like 0083
also had problems with their MS specs; they seemed to have overcompensated
for 0080's massive overkill MSes.

        The J-type from ZZ is similarly overpowered, it seems.
Interestingly, if you plot a graph using the T/W ratio from above, and apply
a logarithmic trend line to it, the massive T/W of the JG pulls the
trendline up such that the J-type actually falls nearer to the trend line
than without the JG.

> Only the GS-type GM, really. The GM Sniper II, like the mass-produced
>Guncannon, is kinda out of line.

        Ths Sniper II is understandable -- limited production, high-end unit
-- but the Guncannon's really out. Unfortunately, the RX-77-D could have
fallen to the "eXperimental model" syndrome... and the designers merely
pegged a higher figure to the Guncannon-D.

        As it turns out, the RX-77-D has almost a third more thrust than the
RX-77-2. Coincidence? Doubtful. But the actual relationship? Unknown.

>> RGM-79SC OYW 75.3 68,000 0.90
> These specs - from Hobby Japan's Gundam Mechanics - aren't otherwise
>corroborated [..]

        Is there another (book) source for the full-weight and thrust of the
MS? I happen only to have the Gundam Mechanics and MSVs, so I could only
corelate from these.

>> RGM-79 0083 58.8 71,480 1.22 Powered GM
> Should be 64.2 tons, giving you a thrust-to-weight ratio of 1.11.

        Noted, and corrected. I should really have checked the stats on
these, given that I knew the stats from the Gundam Mechanics were suspect.

>> RGM-79Q 0083 56.3 61,480 1.09 Weight from Burke's
> Full weight should be 56.5 tons.

        Eh? Really? I could only get the full weight from the Mecha Domain,
since Gundam Mechanics didn't have the Quell, and MSV only supplied the base
weight.

>> RGM-79E was not included as I couldn't find any worthwhile stats for
>>that GM. Anyone has any ideas?
> Only the dry weight, I'm afraid.

        Most sources I've seen don't even have the thrust rating. Since it
appears for all of about 5 minutes, and a shot-up one at that, I suspect
that the E didn't really exist... except in the imagination of the 08MST
creators, who just needed a new space GM. =)

> Note that, in a couple of cases, we can match up high-powered mobile
>suits (GM Sniper II, GP01) with analogous ones whose thrust is a third
>lower (GM Sniper Custom, Powered GM).

        This is true, but not necessarily a good indicator (to what?). For
example, although the GM Sniper II has a third more thrust than the Sniper
Custom, the Sniper II actually came from RGM-79GS, not from the Sniper
Custom. The relationship breaks down there, as the Sniper has about 1.38
times more thrust than a GS-type.

        Chances are, some tech writer took a look at the MS, chose the most
appropriate ancestor, and gave the new MS an arbitrary third more thrust.

>> RX-78NT1-FA 0080 95.0 146,000 1.54
> Should be 174,000 kg thrust, for a ratio of 1.83 - same as the regular Alex.

        This I disagree with. Although we never really saw the full-armoured
Alex in any real combat situation -- the Kampfer match had the FA-Alex
taking about 20 steps or so -- a causal look at the FA-Alex will really cast
into doubt the ability for it to have a T/W of 1.83.

        Although it retains most of the thrusters of the unarmoured Alex, it
only has 6 additional small thrusters to bring an additional 42,000 kg worth
of thrust. While not impossible, it seems unlikely and thus suspect.

        OTOH, if the FA has 146,000kg of thrust, it means each of the 6
small thrusters will require to output only 2,000kg of thrust -- a much more
reasonable figure.

        Incidentally, the 146,000kg figure tallies in both Gundam Mechanics
and MSV.

>> RX-78GP01Fb 0083 74.0 144,000 1.95
> Should be 234,000 kg thrust - a ludicrous 3.16 ratio.

        Again, it's pretty ludicrous. However, we now have a problem, as
Gundam Mechanics pegged it at 144,000kg, MSV at 180,000kg and Mark Simmons
(^_^) at 234,000kg. Since IIRC we never saw the GP01Fb in a drag race with
any other MS, we can't really peg the thrust properly.

>> RX-78GP03 0083 453.1 265,000 0.58
> Should be 2,265,000 kg thrust, for a 5.00 ratio(!).

        Opps! The MSV has the 2,265,000kg figure. The Gundam Mechanics
apparently missed the leading 2.. =)

        Interestingly, when I again apply a logarithmic trend line to the
Gundam T/W chart, the line was pulled up severely by the later GP series,
and as such making the RX-93 Nu Gundam look pretty pathetic. However, when
we remove the obvious problem Gundams (All GP03 and the "GP04"), the Nu
Gundam comes in just a little under the predicted line.

> Presumably part of that is the removal of the chest launcher, though
>otherwise the Ez8 seems bulkier than the regular version...

        Franz Co mentioned that the MS Encyclopedia '98 had the Ex8 at 53.3
tons, which makes it heavier than the standard RX-79[G].

> It's not as overpowered as the GP01Fb or Gerbera Tetra, though. These
>specs really can't be reconciled with the lower ones from Z Gundam, so I
>suggest you not worry too much about it. :-)

        Oh, I won't worry about it, because:

        <sacarsm>
        
        All records of the GP project were deleted.

        </sacarsm>

        The #2 biggest continuity hole in 0083. The #1 continuity hole is in
North America. =)

>> Come to think of it.. didn't a T/W ratio of greater than 1 means
>>that the MS is capable of hovering in mid-air as long as the fuel lasts?
> Yes, but they would only have a few minutes' propellant, at best...

        Ehm.. Doesn't that means the Flight-type Gouf is a flying fuel tank?

-------------
Lim Jyue
ICQ: 24737555

I am careful not to confuse excellence with perfection.
Excellence I can reach for; perfection is God's business.

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