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Hyun Kye (h_kye@skidmore.edu)
Sat, 7 Oct 2000 18:41:31 -0400
Hmmm... Your arguments are quite impressive. ^^;;;
I don't quite see how I should counter those;;;; ^^ My loss;;; ^^ By the
way, I also agree that Quebeley KICKS ASS~~~!! ^^ Although I like the color
for MK II version better ^^
Hyun Kye
-----Original Message-----
From: Ricky Lai <x-lai@uchicago.edu>
To: gundam@aeug.org <gundam@aeug.org>
Date: Saturday, October 07, 2000 2:37 PM
Subject: [gundam] Zion
>Good point!
>
>Hyun Kye wrote:
>
>> Yes. Feddies were not actually good either.
>> And please do remember that I DID NOT SAY THAT FEDDIES
>> WERE ANY BETTER THAN AXIS ZEON. SO PLEASE DON'T PUT WORDS
>> IN MY MOUTH. IT is a VERY well known fact that feddies were
>> very corrupted and as MESSED UP government as you can think of.
>
>There is a need to consider the possibility, however, that the Federation
might
>actually be less supported or widely accepted as it appears. It is
imperative
>to take into account that in the UC universe, the Federation is the one and
only
>political faction aside from Zion, which claimed independence from the
>Federation. This situation resembles those found in many former communist
>countries -- and even China -- where the government is also the sole
political
>party. Titans was not so much of a political entity when it first formed
in
>0083, but rather a elite task force selected for special missions. In that
>sense, they are similar to the Secret Services of the USA: a unit under the
>command of the government. What then happens to them in late 0087 does not
fall
>in line with the political situation of Zion, which exists outside of the
>Federation.
>
>> HOWEVER, you are forgetting the fact that FEDERATION GOVERNMENT
>> was actually an electoral governemnt and Axis Zeon is not. No matter
>> how messed up and corrupted it may be, government elected by the
>> people is far more legitamate than a goverment formed by a
>> dictatorial system. Now you can argue that as time goes on and on,
>> Militaristic facists started to take more and more power
>> within the government and a coup by Jamitov made federation no longer
>> a govenment supported by the people. That is right in many ways but
>> please also remember the fact that in later part of Z, Titans is declared
>> illegitamate by the federation counsel itself(after they figured out the
>> truth about the Titans by Quattro's speech), which is supported by
people.
>
>Even though the Federation's apathy is not so much of an issue, I do like
to
>point out, though, that there have been several instances in the ZZ series
>depicting just that. Noah Bright even got into trouble for appealing to
some
>senior Federation officials!
>
>> Now you said Federation was really apathetic to towards the suffering
>> of the majority of population. HOwever, I truly do not believe that all
>> the govenment officials during Haman's era were all apathetic to the
>> sufferings
>> of the people.
>
>It is undoubtedly beautiful to make a change in the political scene if no
blood
>was shed. Hamaan would have done that if that was totally possible. She
even
>succeeded in seizing Dakar without firing a shot. The Federation not only
>offered no resistance, the senior officials even praised Neo Zion for their
>excellent officers (during the banquet). Had it not been AEUG and Kalaba,
>Hamaan might have turned the stagnant political system around to bring good
to
>the people. Bear in mind that she is a damn good governor, whose skills
>impressed the Axis people so much that they put her in the charge at the
age of
>only 16.
>
>> However, even if they were, I still do believe a electoral
>> government is still better because this way, although it does take time,
>> there is
>> still a better chance of bringing changes about in leadership than the
>> dictatorial system. And if this change in power can come in without
>> bloodshed, unlike
>> how all dictatorial governments and monarchies usually requires bloodshed
>> time to time.
>
>Hamaan is cold-blooded because she is just another politician. At least
she
>cares about building a better world for the people, a world in which
Newtype
>ideals are realized. Hamaan is radical, because that is probably the only
thing
>that will get a stagnant political system back on track. She allows
absolutely
>no opposition because, "who needs that to run a government?"
>
>> First, Haman khan is a cold-blooded, radical dictator who allows
ABSOLUTELY
>> NO OPPOSITION.
>
>Koukan operations are downright inhumane if performed on reluctant
individuals.
>But what if subjects actually requested it? We were never told if Mashirma
and
>Ciara underwent the operation out of their own will or not, as opposed to
those
>Titans pilots. We are sure, however, that both of them displayed great
loyalty
>to Hamaan before the operation, which might explain a voluntary signup for
the
>operation.
>
>> Second, she allowed to performed Koukaningen tests on old types as a
guinea
>> pig when she knows for SURE that it makes people unstable and it can be
>> potentially very bad thing(Same thing applies for the Titans but we know
>> that Titans is BAD).
>
>That was definitely not her own doing. Gremmi is responsible for
puppeteering
>the two Puru's, as well as his cadet of "NT" pilots.
>
>> Third, she cloned Puru twice and made those 14 year old girls turn into a
>> cold-blooded murderers.
>
>She would not have resorted to this move had AEUG and Kalaba not
intercepted her
>overtaking of the Federation's council. On the other hand, the Federation,
>fully aware of her plans, made no attempt to save its people from the
disaster.
>
>> Forth, she drops a colony on earth ONCE AGAIN and kills off damn a lot of
>> people.
>
>To call her divine would be a little too much to say about her, as she
>recognizes that each one of us is just "a tiny spot in the universe."
Moreover,
>contrast her to the prominent NTs of her days, she is unmistakenly the
prowest,
>with unsurpassed piloting and NT awakening. Camille sensed the good in
her, but
>never got around to fully uncovering it and to pass on this belief onto
Juedo,
>whose perception of her is unfortunately warped by prejudice and personal
>vengeance. Juedo, whose piloting skills and "higher beliefs" are both
>questionable, could not had even tied with Hamaan if not were the spirits
which
>came out of nowhere for no reason. Those spirits believed in "peace," but
what
>version of peace did they actually buy? A fake peace in which everyone
lives in
>a lie of that things seem to be going sort of well, when in fact the
government
>is not doing a thing to amerliorate a broken humanity? Also, if there were
>people standing on Juedo's side, then what happened to those people loyal
to
>Hamaan? Reality check comes in at this point: the main character has to
win
>because the story would not sell otherwise. By the way, Qubeley kicks ass!
>
>> Fifth, she uses her favorite motto, "I have obtained the power of space
in
>> my hands." and declares herself divine, when she is just nothing more
than a
>> darn good Newtype who just happen to pilot a very high tech Newtype MS
>> Quebeley(But looses to Judo later anyway;;).
>
>As to Hamaan's relationship to Mineva, that little girl must be stupid to
demand
>attention from someone who totally does not care about her. But then that
does
>not seem to be the case -- Mineva is a smart girl with much NT potential,
as
>noted by Char. Given Mineva's disinterest in politics as a child, she is
>unlikely to develop any motivation to take Axis' matters into her own hand
when
>she grows up. Problem solved for Hamaan! No "small sacrifices" are needed
to
>accomplish a grander goal.
>
>> Sixth, Haman acts as if she really does care of Mineva but in reality she
is
>> just making Mineva lead a sad life. Think about this. If she really did
>> truly cared about Mineva, why did she make her into a figurehead? Point
>> taken that she is too young to rule Axis as an absolute ruler yet but do
you
>> honestly believe that Haman was kind of a person who would give up her
>> position to Mineva when Mineva grows up and ask Haman to hand over the
power
>> now? I TRULY DON'T THINK HAMAN WILL BE DUMB ENOUGH TO DO THAT. So if
this
>> is the case, then what does this lead to? Well gee I don't know. Once
>> Mineva starts to be a threat Haman can just simply, get rid of her...
and
>> assume Mineva's power as well. Will there be oppositions who will be
>> against this? Well yeah, but not many. But as you said, who would care
>> about killing off those "SMALL NUMBER" of people when their number is
>> "minute" compared to the majority of Axis which is following her, am I
not
>> correct?
>
>Hamaan is definitely smart enough not to follow the tracks of Giren, nor
has she
>any reason to follow suit in the first place.
>
>> Hmm... wait, I think I saw this type of absolute dictator from Gundam
>> before? I wonder who that person is.. Oh yeah~! I remember~ His name
is
>> GIREN!! The infamous serial kill of humankind during the One Year War.
>
>I hope there is a better justification in referring to my ignorance. Life
>undisputedly commands paramount importance. No one -- and certainly not
Hamaan
>-- of the right mind would disagree to that. However, there are grave
>situations in which lifes are lost. Hamaan, sitting on top of the
political
>ladder, does not necessarily have absolute control over her entire army,
>especially among the distant lower ranks. For instance, it might not be
her
>intention to impede evacuation of Dublin during the colony drop.
>
>However, if people are not willing to commit to necessary sacrifices for
the
>betterment of a bigger population, is it then alright for the larger
population,
>though not so apparent in present, to be sacrificed in place of the
smaller,
>present population? Of course I pray that such situations will never dawn
on
>us, but it is important that we set our priorities straight in relatively
>peaceful times, in order that we may be better prepared for possible
crises.
>
>> >It is true that Haman is a little radical in sacrificing so many for her
>> objective,
>> >but that number is minute compared to that which the Federation is
slowly
>> >poisoning to an ignorant death.
>>
>> This is truly an ignorant arguement. No matter what you say, there is
>> nothing that can overweight the importance of human life. And there CAN
>> ABSOLUTELY BE NO EXCUSE for murdering thousands of people and make even
more
>> people suffer in agony, just because in the end this would save more
people.
>> Please do remember that there is not happiness which can be obtained by
mass
>> murdering other people. Basically, your way of thinking can bring in a
>> dictator who will be willing to take human life very lightly and thus,
kill
>> people under the premise of "FOR THE SAKE OF OUR FUTURE, YOU HAVE TO
DIE".
>
>
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