garrick lee (
Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:34:24 -0700 (PDT)

side track a bit: i'm still chewing on leslie's
theory that war is a self-imposed challenge (or
something -- correct me if i'm wrong or taking things
out of context) or a certain "next step" when survival
against the elements is assured.

i don't think it's that way. from what i can tell --
from real life history and fiction (like gundam) --
it's always the overambitious, the overzealous, the
fanatic extremists, the rabble rousers and the
eggheads with messianic complexes that cause war.

would the wars that have gone down in history have
been fought in the first place without those
historical characters? i dunno. i'm willing to bet
the average person like you or me would rather be
doing something else than fighting a war.

*starts whistling minmei's "love drifts away"* :P

effective propaganda and humanity's penchant for
stupidity in great numbers (mob mentality or hysteria)
is a startlingly dangerous combination.

kinda hates newtypes...:P

--- Alfred Urrutia <> wrote:
> Richie Ramos wrote:
> > At 09:03 PM 8/18/00 -0700, you wrote:
> >
> > >Those who claim that we "progress" or "evolve"
> through conflict are mistaking
> > >technological and engineering innovation for
> progress and evolution. An
> > armored
> > >dinosaur or pincered beetle is not more highly
> evolved than a flying
> > dinosaur or
> > >butterfly, only better protected against a
> certain class of carnivorous
> > >predator. Forging swords isn't progress, but
> beating them into plowshares
> > is.
> > >Progress comes AFTER the war, when the
> innovations are applied to cooperative
> > >ventures.
> > >-Z-
> >
> > I know that I may have sounded casual about
> violence and war, and I
> > apologize for that. How can I explain how I feel?
> I don't like war, but i
> > do see that it is one of the forces driving human
> development, no matter
> > how ugly that fact is. I do not wish to fight,
> and yet I will gladly do so
> > if I have to protect the people I care for. I
> really wish that there would
> >
> I sort of agree with you here. I believe that we do
> "evolve" through war. Now,
> that doesn't mean that I use the word in a positive
> or war-loving light. Think
> of it in the sense of roaches. Many roaches die
> when exposed to those little
> poison traps. But some don't. So, while it may
> seem like that product is there
> to wipe out roaches, since it doesn't and since some
> roaches are unaffected by
> the poison what it really does is promote the
> breeding of poison-resistant
> roaches. Something I'm sure few people would want.
> War, as an evolutionary
> process, tends to wipe out those that are willing to
> fight on a battlefield.
> Less so now, as the low casualty counts in the last
> few wars have shown, but WWII
> and Vietnam numbers would say that a lot of guys
> willing to die in battle, did.
> And looking at evolution through war as comparable
> to armored dinosaurs'
> evolution is not quite the same. The dinosaur or
> beetle is dealing with a
> localized threat, a threat that a similar dinosaur
> or beetle might not have to
> worry about a hundred miles away. But war is
> global. All cultures seem to
> somehow become involved whether they like it or not.
> A Gundam type war would
> extend beyond Earth. In this sense the culture can
> be considered the evolving
> entity and it has to either survive and adapt or
> die. And die means that the
> loser is either wiped out or it changes into
> something else (slave, blasted back
> to the stone age, assimilated) and basically the
> same as dead even if the people
> making up the culture live.
> If the agressor continues to win and fight then the
> evolution of a better war
> creating machine continues. But if the defenders
> win then the evolution of
> better war stoppers continues. The tools
> (microwaves, lasers, submarines, etc.)
> are a side-effect.
> Alfred.
> --
> "They've got the best babyback ribs. Better than
> Viet Cong ribs."
> - Kelly "Gunny" Port
> Alfred Urrutia - Digital Domain - 310.314.2800
> x2100 -

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