Echo|Fox (echofox@wingzero.net)
Mon, 14 Aug 2000 20:18:11 -0700


>
> I can't see how that can possibily be a curse. After all, it's Gundam,
> not Sailor Moon, not Pokemon, not some dumb Hollywood cartoons. Even if
> none of the Wing Kiddies convert to UC, I still consider that's a blessing
> in itself.
>
That's true. The potential curse being MSG airs on Cartoon Network next year
and its a huge flop, thus CN no longer wants to have anything to do with the
franchise, and Bandai no longer things there's a market ... that would be
bad =) I really doubt that will happen, but its a possibility we can't
discount.

> > accessible to new fans, but its also the anti-thesis to "Tomino" Gundam,
>
> That's hugely debatable, considering "Tomino" is extremely hard to pin
> down. (it's fair to say each of the gurus on GML has a different idea on
> what "Tomino" is about) But I haven't seen Wing so I will like others
> take up this case.
>
Right, I suppose that was bad wording on my part ... hell I still can't come
up with a way to say it. I guess my point was Wing focusses too much on the
mechanics, which was something Gundam has always prided itself on not doing
(too much :P).

> > airing MSG first quite possibly could have bombed, and that would have
> > been a serious blow to Gundam Fandom in North America. Furthermore,
we've
>
> I also seriously doubt that, people complain about 0079's "dated"
> animation. But "animation" is very low on my priority. Heck, I am the
> kind who would stay up late to watch old Looney Toons and even Popeyes
> (not that they show them nowadays).
>
Agreed. Oldschool animation is _Very_ popular, and if we remember my
previous post on how to market MSG, done right (hyping up the classic bit),
i forsee great success.

> Nevertheless, it's undeniable that Wing's success was key to convincing
> the suits (ahem) that 0079 can make it here. But I think it's a statement
> about the TV execs rather than the fandom.
>
Definately. Convincing the suits is always the hard part..

>
> That's not just Wing Kiddies, honestly how many UC fans thinks that RX-78
> is not "boring"? The only kind of fans who rate RX-78 as the best Gundam
> are those who watched 0079 back in the early 80s. The rest falls into the
> group who love Wing Gundam Custom Zero Kai Heavy Armor Booster Type Mk.II
> and the group who love MSZ-010S Enhanced ZZ Gundam Double Zeta with
> Big Mother F**king Gun.
>
<grin> Again, I probably came off with the wrong tone, something I wanted to
avoid. My point this time was that other than the realistic depictions of
characters, Gundam has long stood for mecha as tools of war, not flash (with
some notable exceptions <grin>. Will the current crop of Wing kiddies accept
the RX-78? Unknown, but I forsee many converts to the Duchy of Zeon in the
future. Who DOESN'T like the Zaku? :P

> I don't think any one group is superior to the others. For me personally,
> a Gundam with angelic wings is not my thang, nor is the Mega Hyper
> Launcher or Dendrobium. But I am an aging cynic, not a marketing guru.
> If kids these days prefer flash, I won't loose one minute of sleep over
> it. It's like umm... I identify better with Wing Kiddies than Pokemon
> Kiddies, or Backstreet Boys Kiddies.
>
Sho'nuff. My favorites are the Mark.II and the Ez-8, clearly two with low
"flash" value. But hey, I'll concede that point to you too ... I'd much
rather Wing Kiddies than DBZ Kiddies or Pokemon kiddies =)

> > Super-Hyper-Mega-Omega-Death-Jesus-Christ-Its-Coming-Straight-For us
> > Gundam
>
> See above, I don't think UC Gundams (e.g. Z, ZZ, Sentenial, 0083) are that
> much more more realistic.
>
Sure, but there's a definite difference, I'd say. Take the Ex-S, which is
one of the more ridiculously overpowered suits out there. It still LOOKS
like a machine of war, its just catering to fanboys a little more than say,
the Alex is. That's quite different in tone than the ones in Wing which have
flashy characteristics for appearances sake alone. Shrug. Personal taste
comes into it, I guess. You won't see my fawning over the Ex-S anytime soon,
but I can accept it a bit easier than Nataku from a utilitarian perspective.

> On other "distinguished" ML and NG, you see similarly enlightened debate
> with topics like "EVA would knock Gundam flat on its ass" or "Valkyrie can
> take on 5 Gundams at the same time". Over here in the US, we have
> Hercules/Xena lending a helping hand to Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Judaic and
> Christian characters. Wing vs. DBZ is hardly different.
>
Touche ;p
Everybody wants to defend their series of choice, but for the most part,
GML'ers seem to be a little more rational about it, rather than letting
personal opinions cloud their arguments.

> PS: I think DBZ is pretty comparable to X's Satellite Cannon, no?
Mwuahah.
>
> > - A friend of mine from IRC owns gundam-wing.com, and his e-mail address
> > is > > is duo@gundam-wing.com. He routinely recieves e-mailes from kids who are
> > having difficulty differentiating fantasy from reality ("What's it like
to
> > be a Gundam pilot?", "Are you and Heero gay lovers?")
>
> Ugh... that's pretty distrubing... But how old are these kids? I used to
> think Kamen Rider and Ultraman were real too... I think around 6 or 7
> when I learned things on TV aren't real, I think hmmm... Actually I don't
> think I ever confused cartoons with reality. (Both Kamen Rider and
> Ultraman are live-action)
>
I'm assuming we're talking 6-14 year olds, which is the market they seem to
be targetting. As for that case specifically? I'd hope the younger bit of
that spectrum =) The internet REALLY changes things, ne?

> > Every time I start to shake my head and wonder, I realize that they
_are_
> > just kids, and I'm sure I did the same thing years ago, except it was
>
> Yeah that's true. But pulling in someone off-topic now, we were debating
> violence on TV at lunch time, I am a big proponent for non-censorship. I
> watched millions of murders on TV when I was a kid, but in real life I am
> the biggest non-violent breeding heart type around. That's because I (and
> most HK kids at the time) could seperate TV from reality. Now if kids
> can't figure out the Duo or Heero don't exist and try to imitate their
> actions, that's pretty dangerous.
>
For sure. I grew up watching Schwarzenegger =) My parents taught me about
the difference between "real life" and "make believe" from an early age, so
I've never had any problem differentiating between whats real and whats not.
I play violent video games (http://www.penny-arcade.com/line.shtml), I enjoy
violent movies, and yes, I look at pr0n.

>
> > why they e-mailed me, but hopefully that's at least one wing fan who'll
> > take the time to learn.
>
> I think what you (and other UC fans) did is good. But I just want to
> moderate the tone a bit. There's a certain snobbishness amongst UC fans.
> I think that's like a classical fan dissing a jazz fan, or a jazz fan
> dissing a rock fan, or a rock fan dissing a heavy metal fan, ad infinitum.
> What's the point? There will be some Wing fans who will convert to UC and
> maybe even say something like "heh, it's kind of embarassing, but I
> started with Wing". And there will be some Wing fans who will never
> convert to UC and say things like "First Gundam is so yesterday!" I don't
> think we UC fans should feel the "duty" to "educate" Wing fans. We
> sometimes sound like missionaries
>
> "Forsake thy pagan gundams! Come to the temple and beg for forgiveness
> from the one true Gundam RX-78-2!"
>
Perhaps not that harsh. We don't need to say "AC sucks, UC rules" (as I
mentioned in my intro), we just say "AC is cool, but you should check out
UC, it's cool too". Everything has its place ... even Turn A (which really
does rule. A lot.)

> If we take that altitude towards Wing fans, how are we supposed to behave
> with other anime or SciFi fans?
>
Like assholes =)
No, really, that's a good point. But like I said, we're not putting down
Wing, we just need to show them there's more to Gundam, and let them decide
themselves.

> Another thing I notice is that some oldtimers have this "I was watching
> raw videos with crappy fan-scripts in damp basements when you were still
> in diapers" thing. Basically, now that every street kids know Gundam, it's
> not cool anymore. The price of widespread popularity is crass
> merchandization and casual fans. We can't bitch about the slow acceptance
> of Gundam on one hand and then bitch about the "dumb" fans on the other.
>
Of course we can =) It's not exactly right, hence the reason I feel guilty
whenever I start laughing at something I read ... but we're not bitching
because they're dumb, just uneducated, I guess. It's exactly the same in any
fandom, people who've been around naturally feel superior to the newbies ...
it ain't right, but we do it anyway, we just gotta do what we can =)

> Name: Core
> Patient ID: #1
> Room: http://side7.gundam.com/newtype_asylum/
> Condition: Critical
>

---
Nicholas "Echo|Fox" Paufler
http://www.wingzero.net - Home of the High Quality Gundam Image Archive
"The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts agree,
is by accident.  That's where we come in; we're computer professionals. We
cause accidents." - Nathaniel Borenstein
>

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