Alfred Urrutia (
Sat, 22 Apr 2000 20:51:52 -0700

garrick lee wrote:

> well, i used to believe in a just war, when i was a
> kid and all gung-ho (ah, screw gijoe). :) so, this
> isn't a kneejerk reaction from me. might i ask why
> you think wars are not pointless?

I view wars as super-sized extrapolations of physical fights. I don't
like to fight. I don't like to see my friends get into fights. But if
somebody is really really asking for one and they won't leave me alone
until they get one, they'll get one. The last fight I was in was in
grade school so I don't want you to take this as from some guy who loves
getting into fights. I can almost always talk my way out of one.

> in the case of the resources, more resources are
> ultimately wasted than are acquired in the long run --
> so what was the point of waging the war in the first
> place? the waste is always greater than whatever is
> accomplished. (on the other hand, you could say that
> war prevents a greater which case, i
> believe that having no war in the first place causes
> the least problems)

Depends on the resources. You don't waste land in a war (not counting
nukes or other weapons that make the areas uninhabitable), you don't
waste whatever rare trinket or whatever in a war, i.e. if someone were
stupid enough to get into a war for diamonds, they don't expend diamonds
in a war. Why would one do that? I don't know, I'm just saying that
not all resources are the same.

> in the case of ideals, i say war is pointless simply
> because you wish to spread your ideals, and you kill
> those who refuse to think your way. that's
> self-defeating.

Or wipe out opposing ideals. Still may not work but that won't stop
people from trying. And it's "just" to the ones starting the war. You
and I would not agree but then no one will agree on just, either.

> but what i really think is we need to define
> "pointless"...

Exactly. The point might be as base as getting into a war.

> but the war, of itself, was far from not wasteful and
> destructive. at least, i fail to see how nuking japan
> twice and gassing over a million people ever achieves
> anything, except to trim down global population by a
> good bit.

Which may be enough for some. No one said it would make any real sense
to those of us who are not in the habit of starting or planning wars.

> and if it were truly "planned chaos", how is it a
> *higher* order than natural random chaos? being a
> "planned chaos" does not make war right, either. (the
> context of "chaos" that we are using, i assume, is
> simply 'events that we cannot predict')

Higher order as in C++ is a higher order programming language than
Assembler. Assembler is actually better to use but a true pain in the
ass to code in, so higher doesn't necessarily mean better or anything.
Has nothing to do with right. Cannot predict it starting and cannot
predict the effects once the war is over.

> i am aware of that. but i'm also aware that i could
> live content without computers and the internet (and i
> do). it just so happens it's, i'm using it.
> *shrug* i just happen to think war is a pretty hefty
> price for modern convenience.

Yes, the conveniences are indirect products of the wars most times.
Nobody goes to war to figure out a new way to light houses or prepare

> defeatist? hey, i don't pull shinji acts! i hardly
> sit around and blame life for everything wrong that
> happens. i do what i can, sometimes deluded that i
> can change the world (which is, incidentally, one of
> the reasons i like the character of wufei), but i'm
> not so foolish as to not realize that a lot of things
> are beyond my control and that shit will still happen.
> when you start wondering if you've made a difference
> at all, you start wondering if life IS a joke. it's
> not defeatist. it's being honest, in a smartassed
> fashion. (ok, so it's more of smug cynicism...)

Point taken. The electorial process is a joke here, so I tend to not
participate. Life itself, though, I take as a wonderful tornado of
experiences and I'm just pissed that I can't get to it all.


"The Estroraptor got to him."
                                   - StJohn, on Mook's spinal disfunction

Alfred Urrutia - Digital Domain - 310.314.2800 x2100 - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

- Gundam Mailing List Archives are available at

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.0b3 on Sun Apr 23 2000 - 12:56:34 JST