garrick lee (
Thu, 30 Mar 2000 05:20:27 -0800 (PST)

eh...let's have one last go at this. :)

i can accept the other stuff you say about macross,
except for the part about glorifying war. i cannot
believe that.

yes, war in macross is shown in a glamorous manner (i
can't think of any other show that has a love song
playing in the background of a slaughterfest...), but
that does not equate to the "war is glamorous"
philosophy that you're telling me that macross has.
and until it falls from shoji kawamori himself, we're
never going to know for sure, are we? :P

the war and aftermath in macross is idealized, but
nothing in macross promotes war. saying that macross
glorifies war is no more reasonable than my saying
that gundam glorifies elitism.

> I can live with some of that but Macorss doesn't say
> war is a big no no at
> all.

nowhere does macross say war is a big yes. for every
interpretation you can come up with that concludes
macross glorifies war, i can come up with another that
says it doesn't (misa and father in the grand cannon
incident -- look what happens when people only know
how to exchange violence and not diplomacy). yes,
both instances that we submit will be idealized and
vintage-macross utopia. but that's not the point.

> It says "Keep Fighting! Preserve the
> Motherland! Fight with Music!
> Fight with Freely Available Consumer electronics!
> Fight with planes that
> turn into robots! Fight Fight!"

fight with music, ok. but "fight fight fight"???
if you've ever bothered to study the characters (well,
maybe the mckinney novels delved into the characters
more deeply than both versions of the anime), you'd
see all of them had reservations about war. none of
them gained a thing from war, and they're fighting
against their will. doesn't sound like glorifying war
to me.

> While it doesn't try
> to make the war seem
> enjoyable it does try to make it glorious and epic
> and the legendary story
> of mankind's determination. Macross is about being
> filled with the Divine
> Wind and about assimilating those who would destroy
> you with superior
> culture and suicidal bravery.

er...non sequitur. epic stories do not necessarily
equate to pro-war. macross didn't try to make war
enjoyable. but it didn't glorify it either -- the
absence of gore and overblown war anxiety does not
mean anything. as i said -- macross is considerably
less preachy about things than gundam is.

> Ikaru Ichijo travels through Macross at first wary
> of and eventually
> grudgingly accepting the need for a military for war
> etc.

yes. sometimes a war just has to be fought. but
fighting that war doesn't make it glorious, just, or
good. it's a bad thing that just has to be done.

> But the war is
> pretty much a black and white artificial save
> ourselves from the genocidal
> aliens type of story.

yup. i still don't see how it glorifies war. if any,
it shows how stupid war is. not in the overwrought
manner of gundam, but still....

> How would you have felt if Ichijo had quit the
> military in the middle of the
> rush back from Pluto and started playing Lynn
> Kyle(Since everybody seems
> into the Robotech side of things)style pacifist
> games? The pacifist
> character was made into a vain conceited
> materialistic fool. The idealized
> common warrior learning the warriors trade is made
> into a hero and confirmed
> in his heroism by his willingness to sacrifice
> himself for the motherland
> and for his correctly assessed priorities.

uh...i don't see the point. hikaru is the realist,
realizing that if he doesn't fight, there's no one
left who will fight, and they'll all die. "no more
flying for fun, it's the real thing this time". he
doesn't like it, but he does it. there's no
glorifying war in it. just shows how sad war can be.

lynn kyle (kaifun? forgot his jap name) was a
hypocrite. no vanity or materialism involved. he was
espousing peace, when he was more warlike than the
unwilling pilots. he was just anti-military.

how would i have felt if hikaru pulled a kyle? well,
i wouldn't know. macross characters aren't like that.
 i'd figure hikaru was fickle, then.

> I think
> Macross is VERY pro war.
> Not conquest or xenophobia exactly but still war in
> order to preserve ones
> cultural identity. We call that "Peace though
> Strength" today.

well, if you call that "war", then you can go off the
hook. macross was in no way about conquest or
xenophobia (well, maybe a little about
xenophobia...considering the way they treated the 3
zent spies, and the marriage of max and milia).

> Now compare that to how you felt when Amuro ran off
> with the Gundam and hid
> it in the sand after hearing that they would take it
> away from him and after
> being drafted and kept on a ship with other refugees
> and almost court
> martialed and being worked constantly towards a
> nervous breakdown and having
> little to no real training to prepare him?

there's a WORLD of a difference between hikaru and
amuro. for one, hikaru wasn't shocked into the role
of soldier like amuro was (unless you count the
accidental launch of the trainer jet and hikaru being
fazed by the sight of the zentraedi). hikaru himself
accepted grudgingly the role of a soldier and turned
himself over to bootcamp. amuro didn't have that

hikaru was also more mature than maladjusted amuro. i
don't think you can blame lack of parental guidance in
their case.

how did i feel? well, i felt amuro was being a brat
about it. he didn't own the gundam. amuro's
situation doesn't strike me as enviable either. the
thing with amuro vs hikaru is that amuro was far more
annoying AND sympathy-inducing than hikaru.

> Macross's war is idealized and Amuro's is somewhat
> more realistic.

again, idealized warfare doesn't mean it's glorified.
it may not be as gory or as gut-wrenching, and the
horrors may be muted, but all for the sake of giving
the viewer an easier watch. there's a reason why
macross is classified as space opera and not war

> Macross is about Nationalism except they go to the
> extreme that human
> culture is the nation, and yes it is a holy war to
> preserve the motherland
> from her enemies no matter how numerous or mighty.
> Baseball Mom and Apple
> Pie.

it is about war, simple. not about how glamorous war
is. war is the backdrop, and not the focus.

> Then we have the strategic capture of the
> zentran production facilities
> well after the survival of the human race becomes a
> factor.

i believe roland answered this already. the satellite
was captured because the survival of the human race
was still in question. khyron & co were still at

> We have
> colonization, territorial disputes with other aliens
> (whether Zentran or
> Inspection forces or whatever I don't know...but
> they were in the beginning
> of Macross +) and all the trappings of an
> expansionist Micron uh I mean
> human culture and it is willing carried out by man
> kind AFTER the great
> Earth Blasting.

weren't they just finding new places for humans to
live in?

> Seems like a Holy war to me. Not exactly a Crusade
> per se but still a nice,
> clean, holy, patriotic, good vs. evil, gotta do it
> for the kids, type of
> war.

you're really pushing the limits of the definitions

> Macross presents war differently than Gundam. Gundam
> is cynical in it's
> political design and Macross is primarily
> idealistic. Macross is about
> taking and preserving one's rightful hegemony due to
> culture

too much hifaluting words. hegemony schmegemony.
macross is about preserving culture. by war, if
necessary. and that doesn't mean war is glorified.

> where Gundam
> leans towards disarmament and the dissolution of
> central authorities to
> break the endless cycle of violent confrontation. I
> don't think Gundam's
> goals are realistic and certainly wouldn't recommend
> a policy of disarmament
> in the UC timeline, but nonetheless that's it's
> implied solution. People
> should quit trying to rule each other and subvert
> others to their guiding
> philosophy via force and coercion. They should
> listen to the new types and
> trust each other and rely on intuition rather than
> rumors and suspicion.

> turned a lot of
> > zentraedis into gibbering fanboys. the point was
> > the zents found a better way to live -- a life
> > war, a life with proper culture (as represented
> > song in the macross universe...which seems to
take the
> > maxim "music is the universal language" a bit too
> > seriously...). the fact that some of the zents
> > reverted back to their warlike nature after
> > bored with peace doesn't debunk this. it just
> > that the zents were more like humans, than not --
> > the zents can be as fickle and contrarian as
> >

>Yeah but isn't that the idealized view of a post
>conflict pacification? All the bad guys are redeemed
>and saved and a few bad apples put up token
>resistence yet are vanquished again at great cost and
>sacrifice? IF the UN SPacy authority was starving the
>Zentrans in the post war settlement then wewould have
>Gundam similarity. But still I say that they are
>pretty different.

so what if it's idealized? it doesn't make macross
pro-war. a gundam story would have put the zents into
starvation, but then gundam is a gray world, and
macross is black & white.

> BTW when I said Holy WarI did not mean religeous >
>zealots pouring over the border to kill for Mohammad
>or Bhudda or Jesus or whoever's got the halo this
>week. I just mean a war you can be proud of. A holy
>war is one that God tells you to go fight. It's the
>right thing. It's necessary and good etc. etc.
>I guess I should have framed my term before using it.

eh...your clarified term makes no more sense. war is
necessary, but never good, never right. and if a
kind, loving god existed (i'm agnostic), i seriously
doubt he'd have ever told anyone to go to war.

>Gundam makes wars about more material or
nationalistic >concerns. It's usually a classic Nietze
scenario of >Ubermensch pitting thralls against one
another via >deception and gold to amuse and glorify
themselves. >The only good organizations in Gundam are
the >reactionary counter-organizations. Kalaba, AEUG,
Lond >Bell, League Militaire, etc.

ok, let me paraphrase your sentiment: a war about
good vs. evil (or misguided, in the zents' case)
glorifies war, while a war that's fought among
resources and material wealth does not?

i could say the same thing about federation vs. zeon.
but you would counter that zeons are just misguided,
in which case, the same goes for the zentraedi.
suddenly we realize there isn't any good vs. evil in
macross any more than there is in gundam. it just
seems that way in macross because aliens are an easy
target. but when the aliens aren't the cliche
insectoid monster you see in warhammer 40k or in
predator or aliens, the distinction between good and
evil is harder to call.

exactly how is the zeon's fight for independence (an
ideal that people throughout real life history fight
for) any less idealized (and therefore less
glorifying war?) than humankind's fight for survival
in macross? i'd have thought the latter scenario
necessitated war more than a simple creed like
spacenoid independence.

if humans can't even talk to each other and must
resort to war, something's really screwed up

>That's all I'm saying. I like Macross but it doesn't
>clench me in the gutthe way that Gundam UC usually

i can dig that. though i'd say this is a case of

what i don't accept is that you're painting macross in
a grossly different light just because it doesn't
clench you in the gut the way gundam uc does. you
may not be doing it intentionally, but that's how it
comes across in the past few emails. if gundam style
war story hits you harder, that's ok -- it hits me
harder than macross too, even though macross will have
a cozy spot in my fan-hood. but it's a bit
infuriating for a macross fan to be told by a gundam
fan that macross is nothing more than thinly veiled
pro-war jingoism. it's doubly infuriating because
macross isn't.



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