Roland Thigpen (
29 Mar 2000 15:35:49 -0000

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:07:59 -0800 (PST) Emery Calame <> wrote:

>I can live with some of that but Macorss doesn't say war is a big no no at
>all. It says "Keep Fighting! Preserve the Motherland! Fight with Music!
>Fight with Freely Available Consumer electronics! Fight with planes that
>turn into robots! Fight Fight!" While it doesn't try to make the war seem
>enjoyable it does try to make it glorious and epic and the legendary story
>of mankind's determination. Macross is about being filled with the Divine
>Wind and about assimilating those who would destroy you with superior
>culture and suicidal bravery.
>Ikaru Ichijo travels through Macross at first wary of and eventually
>grudgingly accepting the need for a military for war etc. But the war is
>pretty much a black and white artificial save ourselves from the genocidal
>aliens type of story.
>How would you have felt if Ichijo had quit the military in the middle of the
>rush back from Pluto and started playing Lynn Kyle(Since everybody seems
>into the Robotech side of things)style pacifist games? The pacifist
>character was made into a vain conceited materialistic fool. The idealized
>common warrior learning the warriors trade is made into a hero and confirmed
>in his heroism by his willingness to sacrifice himself for the motherland
>and for his correctly assessed priorities. I think Macross is VERY pro war.
>Not conquest or xenophobia exactly but still war in order to preserve ones
>cultural identity. We call that "Peace though Strength" today.
>Now compare that to how you felt when Amuro ran off with the Gundam and hid
>it in the sand after hearing that they would take it away from him and after
>being drafted and kept on a ship with other refugees and almost court
>martialed and being worked constantly towards a nervous breakdown and having
>little to no real training to prepare him?
>Macross's war is idealized and Amuro's is somewhat more realistic.
>Macross is about Nationalism except they go to the extreme that human
>culture is the nation, and yes it is a holy war to preserve the motherland
>from her enemies no matter how numerous or mighty. Baseball Mom and Apple
>Pie. Then we have the strategic capture of the zentran production facilities
>well after the survival of the human race becomes a factor. We have
>colonization, territorial disputes with other aliens (whether Zentran or
>Inspection forces or whatever I don't know...but they were in the beginning
>of Macross +) and all the trappings of an expansionist Micron uh I mean
>human culture and it is willing carried out by man kind AFTER the great
>Earth Blasting.
>Seems like a Holy war to me. Not exactly a Crusade per se but still a nice,
>clean, holy, patriotic, good vs. evil, gotta do it for the kids, type of

MY GOD! ARE YOU BLIND?!?!?!?!?!?!? The war in Macross was one of survival! Not of a nation, but of a people! Even later, the whole colonization effort was to ensure that, come what may, the human race would survive! And if you can't see that, the more's the pity. That kind of war is not holy, it is grim, dirty and a hell of alot more poignant than some stupid wars about the future humanity should take (a la CCA).

Amuro was a snot-nozed cry baby throughout most of Gundam. To me, he ranks up there with Shinji Ikari of Evangelion, who was always continually whining about not wanting to be there (at least in the three original series movies).

At least he got better by CCA (and a little at the end of the third movie), but still, Hikaru at least realized that sometimes a war must be fought if only to ensure the survival of others.

Yes, Macross is more idealized than Gundam, but it also has other factors that Gundam does not. Maybe if we had a Gundam in which the main enemy was a group of aliens, we might see something similar to Macross. In Macross, you had two vastly different species, one geared solely to war (the Zentreadi), and one that was not, but was still extremely good at it because they had so much practice with it against themselves (humanity). What happens when two warlike races collide? Genocide.

And that was what Macross was written about. The stupidity and pointlessness of such a fight, when if the two sides met and actually leanred about each other, they might find they have more in common with each other than they think.

>Macross presents war differently than Gundam. Gundam is cynical in it's
>political design and Macross is primarily idealistic. Macross is about
>taking and preserving one's rightful hegemony due to culture where Gundam
>leans towards disarmament and the dissolution of central authorities to
>break the endless cycle of violent confrontation. I don't think Gundam's
>goals are realistic and certainly wouldn't recommend a policy of disarmament
>in the UC timeline, but nonetheless that's it's implied solution. People
>should quit trying to rule each other and subvert others to their guiding
>philosophy via force and coercion. They should listen to the new types and
>trust each other and rely on intuition rather than rumors and suspicion.

And how was Macross any different in reference to how I put it above?

>Yeah but isn't that the idealized view of a post conflict pacification? All
>the bad guys are redeemed and saved and a few bad apples put up token
>resistence yet are vanquished again at great cost and sacrifice? IF the UN
>SPacy authority was starving the Zentrans in the post war settlement then we
>would have Gundam similarity. But still I say that they are pretty

I say we still have Gundam similarity. The rougue Zentrans are like Delaz fleet or the Neo-Zeon or lots of others. Rogue elements of a nation that no longer wants war (at least not like before). And everyone was starving so, there you go. You only have so many supplies to go around after over 70% of the Earth's surface has been annihilated (hmm, similarities to Operation British? Or maybe Gundam X's massive colony drops?)

>BTW when I said Holy WarI did not mean religeous zealots pouring over the
>border to kill for Mohammad or Bhudda or Jesus or whoever's got the halo
>this week. I just mean a war you can be proud of. A holy war is one that God
>tells you to go fight. It's the right thing. It's necessary and good etc.

War might be neccessary, but it is never right and good. And Macross was trying to make that point. Obviously, you missed that.

>I guess I should have framed my term before using it.
>Gundam makes wars about more material or nationalistic concerns. It's
>usually a classic Nietze scenario of Ubermensch pitting thralls against one
>another via deception and gold to amuse and glorify themselves. The only
>good organizations in Gundam are the reactionary counter-organizations.
>Kalaba, AEUG, Lond Bell, League Militaire, etc.


>That's all I'm saying. I like Macross but it doesn't clench me in the gut
>the way that Gundam UC usually does.

And I like Gundam, "but it doesn't clench me in the gut the way" Macross does to use your words.

So again, I guess we should agree to disagree.


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