Emery Calame (palaeomerus@excite.com)
Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:07:59 -0800 (PST)


On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:20:55 -0500, gundam@aeug.org wrote:

>
>
> > ----------
> > From: garrick lee[SMTP:goner4sure@yahoo.com]
> > Reply To: gundam@aeug.org
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 8:44 AM
> > To: gundam@aeug.org
> > Subject: Re: [gundam] My thoughts on Gundam 0080 and 0083
> >
> >
> > AAAAAAAAAAARGH!
> >
> > don't talk about my beloved macross that way!!!
> > or i'll lock you up in a room and play reba west
> > singing minmei all day.
> >
> Hey.... I'm going to report you to WWW.REBAWESTFANS.com

No problem. I'll just break into that tune they always play in the MS Gundam
III movie everytime LaLa is on the screen. Except I'll be off key and I
don't really know the words so I'll be going "na na na na na na
NAAAAAAA...." If that doesn't work I'll play my Urusei Yatsura soundtrack
until she goes away.
 
> > eh...but actually, i agree with what emery said. :P
> >
> > except for a few parts -- i say macross and gundam
> > both show how and why war is big no-no that kids
> > shouldn't try at home (or anyone anywhere else, for
> > that matter). it's just that gundam is preachier (and
> > sometimes, unnecessarily heavyhanded and overwrought
> > about it...it's like "ok ok i get the point already!
> > quit hammering into my head!") about it, while macross
> > has it's head up in the clouds all the time, being the
> > space opera that it is, and not a gritty war story.

I can live with some of that but Macorss doesn't say war is a big no no at
all. It says "Keep Fighting! Preserve the Motherland! Fight with Music!
Fight with Freely Available Consumer electronics! Fight with planes that
turn into robots! Fight Fight!" While it doesn't try to make the war seem
enjoyable it does try to make it glorious and epic and the legendary story
of mankind's determination. Macross is about being filled with the Divine
Wind and about assimilating those who would destroy you with superior
culture and suicidal bravery.

Ikaru Ichijo travels through Macross at first wary of and eventually
grudgingly accepting the need for a military for war etc. But the war is
pretty much a black and white artificial save ourselves from the genocidal
aliens type of story.

How would you have felt if Ichijo had quit the military in the middle of the
rush back from Pluto and started playing Lynn Kyle(Since everybody seems
into the Robotech side of things)style pacifist games? The pacifist
character was made into a vain conceited materialistic fool. The idealized
common warrior learning the warriors trade is made into a hero and confirmed
in his heroism by his willingness to sacrifice himself for the motherland
and for his correctly assessed priorities. I think Macross is VERY pro war.
Not conquest or xenophobia exactly but still war in order to preserve ones
cultural identity. We call that "Peace though Strength" today.

Now compare that to how you felt when Amuro ran off with the Gundam and hid
it in the sand after hearing that they would take it away from him and after
being drafted and kept on a ship with other refugees and almost court
martialed and being worked constantly towards a nervous breakdown and having
little to no real training to prepare him?

Macross's war is idealized and Amuro's is somewhat more realistic.

Macross is about Nationalism except they go to the extreme that human
culture is the nation, and yes it is a holy war to preserve the motherland
from her enemies no matter how numerous or mighty. Baseball Mom and Apple
Pie. Then we have the strategic capture of the zentran production facilities
well after the survival of the human race becomes a factor. We have
colonization, territorial disputes with other aliens (whether Zentran or
Inspection forces or whatever I don't know...but they were in the beginning
of Macross +) and all the trappings of an expansionist Micron uh I mean
human culture and it is willing carried out by man kind AFTER the great
Earth Blasting.

Seems like a Holy war to me. Not exactly a Crusade per se but still a nice,
clean, holy, patriotic, good vs. evil, gotta do it for the kids, type of
war.

Macross presents war differently than Gundam. Gundam is cynical in it's
political design and Macross is primarily idealistic. Macross is about
taking and preserving one's rightful hegemony due to culture where Gundam
leans towards disarmament and the dissolution of central authorities to
break the endless cycle of violent confrontation. I don't think Gundam's
goals are realistic and certainly wouldn't recommend a policy of disarmament
in the UC timeline, but nonetheless that's it's implied solution. People
should quit trying to rule each other and subvert others to their guiding
philosophy via force and coercion. They should listen to the new types and
trust each other and rely on intuition rather than rumors and suspicion.

> > macross wasn't about a holy war. and it NEVER
> > glorified war! no no no. NO. i disagree as
> > vehemently as i can (until i burst a jugular or two,
> > and then i'll simply disagree in a coma).
> >
> > it was a war for survival, and not a single human
> > character was there in macross that wished for war to
> > happen or viewed war as the culmination of existence
> > or catharsis of humanity's collective soul (ala trieze
> > the warmonger, and i think he's one genius, but a
> > sicko as well). the zentraedi defection is almost

Well Gundam Wing doesn't exactly fit what I said about Gundam vs. Macross. I
should have said Gundam UC I guess. Nope SDGundam doesn't work either... :)

Basicly Wing Gundam ends up deploring war but only after more side switching
than has ever been in any Gundam ever (that I know of), and lots of vague,
poetic, impromptu, verbal essays deleverd by over dressed pilots. It's a
definite second fiddle to UC stuff in my book. But it beats NASCAR
Racers....

> > symbolic -- i don't find it stupid (some do, and i
> > understand that) that minmei's singing (mari ijima and
> > not reba west mind you -- the latter singing might
> > just actually start a war...)
> >
> See response above.......
>
> Didn't the song song by Mari Ijima "Do you remember love"
> hit the Japanese top 10 if not number 1?

 
> > turned a lot of
> > zentraedis into gibbering fanboys. the point was that
> > the zents found a better way to live -- a life without
> > war, a life with proper culture (as represented by
> > song in the macross universe...which seems to take the
> > maxim "music is the universal language" a bit too
> > seriously...). the fact that some of the zents
> > reverted back to their warlike nature after getting
> > bored with peace doesn't debunk this. it just proves
> > that the zents were more like humans, than not -- that
> > the zents can be as fickle and contrarian as humans.
> >

Yeah but isn't that the idealized view of a post conflict pacification? All
the bad guys are redeemed and saved and a few bad apples put up token
resistence yet are vanquished again at great cost and sacrifice? IF the UN
SPacy authority was starving the Zentrans in the post war settlement then we
would have Gundam similarity. But still I say that they are pretty
different.

BTW when I said Holy WarI did not mean religeous zealots pouring over the
border to kill for Mohammad or Bhudda or Jesus or whoever's got the halo
this week. I just mean a war you can be proud of. A holy war is one that God
tells you to go fight. It's the right thing. It's necessary and good etc.
etc.

I guess I should have framed my term before using it.

Gundam makes wars about more material or nationalistic concerns. It's
usually a classic Nietze scenario of Ubermensch pitting thralls against one
another via deception and gold to amuse and glorify themselves. The only
good organizations in Gundam are the reactionary counter-organizations.
Kalaba, AEUG, Lond Bell, League Militaire, etc.

That's all I'm saying. I like Macross but it doesn't clench me in the gut
the way that Gundam UC usually does.

Emery

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