Emery Calame (palaeomerus@excite.com)
Wed, 29 Mar 2000 01:42:27 -0800 (PST)


On 28 Mar 2000 12:23:01 -0000, gundam@aeug.org wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:30:48 -0800 (PST) Emery Calame
<palaeomerus@excite.com> wrote:
> >
>
> >on my part. Here I was watching mobile suits and mobile armor and
failing to
> >appreciate the people9well characters anyway) who were flying them and
their
> >motivations, dreams etc.
> >
> >None of that in Macross.... heh.
> >
> >Emery
> >
>
>
> None of that in Macross? What about Roy? What about the hundreds of
pilots and ships crew that die? What about the billions on Earth you die in
the Zentreadi holocaust? Hikaru, like Amuro, Seabook, and so many other kids
in Gundam, giving up alot of his dreams and forced to become a pilot and
fight in a war that he did not truly want to.
>
> Just because it ain't always said, don't mean it ain't there.

Uhh I guess. Look Macross wasn't anti-war(just anti-militarism) and it
didn't really focus on realistic political situations. It was about a
struggle btween a bunch of backwards bigoted morons(Earth), a huge alien
ship full of kind, decent, upstanding individuals(many pressed
refugees...hmmm.), and a leviathan alien military made up of giant
expendable brainwashed culture deprived clones.

While Macross played around with themes about what is worth fighting for it
was really a classic underdog samurai tale that ended with the few noble
warriors among the enemy turning on the their lunatic god-emperor commander
and winning just through being really right.

The slaughter was pretty much there to make the Macross crew look good. It
wasn't really a preachy anti-war statement about casualties. Everybody who
died was a martyr rather than a tragic victim.
 
> The one scene in Robotech (I'm not positive on the original Macross
translation of the scene, but I imagine it was very similar), was in Force
of Arms. It was when it shows a soldier talking with a little girl, asking
her how old she is, and her replying 2, just as a reflex blast hits and
kills them both. What about their dreams? I don't even remember Gundam ever
having a seen quite like that, with them focusing on someone so young being
killed.
>

Hey, if Max Genius had shot the little girl because he thought she was a
micron spy and then been punched by Hikaru Ichijo then you might have
something there but Macross is not about the horrors of war and the nobility
of those who fight only put an end to war but a sort of glorification of
fighting for an ideal(like maintaining culture) and survival even when your
own side wants to deport you to space.

BTW it's not children exactly but Gundam F91 had a woman getting her head
mashed in by an expended head vulcan casing ejected by a Heavy Gun trying to
defend the colony froma raid by the corssbones vanguard.
It just happened to hit her and down she went. (Actually it may not have
been a Heavy Gun...but I thought it was..)

> And then there is Macross, Do You Remember Love? When Hikaru's sempai Roy
is killed right in front of eyes, and Misa tells him to continue his
mission, to which he lashes back at her. And then Misa giving up after she
sees that Earth was destroyed. Misa almost giving up in the original series
when thinking about her fiance on Mars, etc.
>

Yeah but again this isn't senseless tragedy. It's good guys and bad
guys.It's glorifying war(albeit defensive war) and not treating it with
distaste. It's nationalistic instead of humanistic.

> And then in Macross Plus, Guld sacrificing his life so that the mission
could succeed. Macross 7, with Basara almost sacrificing his life so that an
enemy might live.

I would say that Macross Plus comes closer to being in the same lcamp as
Gundam in that there is an object lesson about needless conflict, not taking
responsibility for ones own life, and becoming a victim of ones own
technology. It is definitely the most mature of the macross material that I
have seen. I haven't seen much Macross 7 yet so be patient with me.

I was especially impressed when Isamu covered with bandages tells Mi Yung
that he and Guld aren't the reson that she is miserable and that neither of
them owe her anything. Isamu basicly says "yeah I'm a stupid hot head. Yeah
I'm inconsiderate! But I take responsibility for that and I don't blame
others for my troubles. I cause my troubles just like you caused all of
yours. Nobody will ever make you happy..that's up to you despite all these
obstacles you whine about. I don't mind that you rejected me and went to
GUld! I wouldn't have you if you did want me because you are nothing but a
dependant lazy little child who would use me as an excuse to be unhappy
forever. "

That was very deep stuff for anime and almost perfectly true as far as real
life advice goes. You almost never hear grown up truth like that. Of course
it sucks that he punched her(when she was trying to break up his fight with
guld) but it showed surprising maturity for such a vain dipshit as Isamu. He
got it. He knew he was sort of a failure but didn't want a lot of background
non-sense that he could pretend was the real problem. He took
responsibility. It's probably not what most of the audience wanted to hear
at that moment but it did break up the soap opera nicely.

It's also touching when Guld finally takes responsibility for what he did to
Mi Yung, what he did to Isamu, and decides to forget about it, let it go,
and move on to where he can do the right thing(handle the phantom
auto-bomber valkyrie thing so Isamu can take a shot at Sharon/The Macross
)now.
 
> All of these Macross series had characters who had dreams and
motivations, but that were sacrificed to fight wars that were forced on
them.

Holy wars. Desperate holy wars. Gundam wars aren't usually holy though a few
battles might be....Gundam wars are dirty. They are mostly unecessary. There
are no genocidal aliens. Just more people with misconceptions and cultural
differences that let them trample on each other's lives and rights. Gundam
wars are the filth that usually lies behind the propaganda inreal wars. They
only appear wholesome on the surface. The characters of Gundam are most
often victims not martyrs. Their heroism is often wasted or worse used to
spawn more atrocities.

  
> Don't say Macross did not have that.

Does Macross have a Lala? A Four? An Esso?(Man I almost cried when his flame
stabbed him like that and started talking cold blooded new -type new-age
crap. She deserved that psychomu lobotmy! Damn! And I thought I'd made it
past all the sad stuff too!) A Quess Paraya? A Blex Fora? A Zeon Zum Daikun?

I realize that Macross Plus had that evil general...(Millard?) But like I
said it kind of stands apart from Macross in General. I'd say that it takes
Macross into very Gundamesque waters.

Besides we all know that Roy was just a latter day Ensign/Lieutenant
Sleggar clone anyway. Chui!....Chui! :) (Robotech uh...prettied
up...Mr. Fokker quite a bit from his Macross version. He almost seemed
educated and reasonable in the Americanized dub.)

And it's a two way transfer. Latter day UC Gundam(OVA's)have UNT Spacy (UN
SPacy from Macross being the target of rip off here) painted on lots of
stuff. At least one did anyway....

I think there is a distinct thematic difference between Gundam and most
Macross.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. All in fun though... No hard
feelin's. :)

See ya!

Emery
(palaeomerus@excite.com)
   
> Roland

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