Roland Thigpen (jenius@unspacy.org)
Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:44:42 -0500


You know, I'm growing tired of this. Neither of us is going to convince the other of his side it seems. If I was Char, I would go to war over it, but I prefer Amuro's approach more, so I will only comment on a couple things, and then drop this thread.

On Tue, 28 Dec 1999 20:59:42 -0800 Jim Huang <tyhuang@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>On 28 Dec 99, at 18:28, Roland Thigpen wrote:
>
>Not "passport". You only need passport/visa at border. The
>difference is that people need the explicit premission to stay on
>Earth, as well as entering Earth. That premission is not for life, and
>will be reviewed when you change job or retire. Or you can be
>deported just because federation lowered the population quota. Tell
>me which nation does that today.
>

Uh, the US? Ever hear of a Green Card?

>> How can you support an evil action, even if I allow that the end
>> result would be a utopia? The ends do not justify the means. I cannot
>> express this enough. I for one would not want to live in a utopia that
>> came about due to the deaths of several million innocent people and
>> the destruction of Earth.
>
>Let's just said I just had my dinner because a chicken was dead,
>and I don't think that's because of suicide or nature cause.
>

So did I. Had chicken for lunch too. I felt nothing for the chicken. I would still have qualms about eating a human. You are arguing semantics. How can you compare animals to humans? Char claims he was taking his actions so that humanity as a whole would prosper. But that is his view of the situation and that view is not shared by everyone. However, it is not his reasons behind his actions I really question (I'm still sceptical about them, but I can respect his beliefs and willingness to promote them), but the methods he uses to promote them. Your arguement can be taken to mean that you would support movements like Hitler's Third Reich, which also had visions of glorious tomorrows with humanity finally united under one banner, but would have been built on the bones and blood of many millions of innocents murdered. You might argue that Char actually saw his future due to his newtype powers, but I still debate the thinking that his was the only way. And, like Amuro, I question h!
is qualifications to pass judgement on the whole of mankind.

And in another email in response to Neil, you say:

>Again, you are talking about Zabist. As for how people >in space feel about dropping astroid on Earthnoid elites. >Review the earlier part of the CCA, the dialog between >Amuro and Bright, on how several sides had refused their >request to use colony laser to stop 5th Lunar for fear of >"internal strife". And whne Side 2 does it, its people
>revolted and put an end to it. Additionally, remember >what they said later in hanger.
>
> Amuro:
>"We've been surveying all the colonies for the past two >years - why
>didn't we know that Char was making military >preparations?"
>
>Bright:
>"There are a lot of spacenoids who hate the fact that the >Federation
>rules them from below on Earth. Londo Bell goes to >investigate and
>the civilians will cover for Char."

>So who is the majority here?

>Jim Huang

Have you ever heard of guerrila underground movements? You argued earlier about the small percentage hindering the efforts of the larger. I argue the same here. It did not have to be the entire populations of the colonies on the Jion's side for what you stated above to work. Ask civil rights movements people here in America, or the guerilla soldiers of Vietnam or numerous other countries throughout the world. Give me some firm figures on how much of th population of each colony actually supported Char and I will concede this point.

Like I said before though, we are never going to convince each other of our points of view, and this debate has gone on long enough and taken up enough space in my email storage space (yes, I am keeping the emails related to this most interesting debate). I propose we agree to disagree on this, and go on to other debates.

Roland

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