Jim Huang (tyhuang@OCF.Berkeley.EDU)
Tue, 28 Dec 1999 20:59:42 -0800
On 28 Dec 99, at 18:28, Roland Thigpen wrote:
> >In fact, If you watched First Gundam, you will know that Jion, partly
> > lead by Char, tried to invade and destory the MS factory in Jaburo,
> >and failed. So it's not an overkill to take Jaburo with colony drop.
> >You can find out about the final fall of Jaburo in Zeta gundam,
> >epsoide 12.
> Sorry, my mistake. I meant to say Zeta. And yes, I do remember the
> assault on Jabrow during the OYW. I also remember that Char was only
AEUG didn't succesfully invade Jabura either. They were able to
enter Jaburo because Titans were leading them into a trap. For
Jion to try to take Jaburo by conventional means, the odd was not in
their favor. So colony drop is a rational decision.
> >There are a lot more you don't know, too. That's an simplification,
> >and more details can be found if you hunt through GML archive to find
> >my synopsis of "Senkou no Hathaway".
> "Currently, to stay on Earth, it's necessary to carry permit issued by
> federation government.
> That's the result of migration to space colony, to prevent the the
> marginlization of the immigrants, forced migration is implemented.
> That's necessary evil."
> Here, if I am reading this correctly, is Hathaway taking a series of
> laws or "official lines" in the first sentence and then expressing his
> thoughts on the matter in the second. Here, we find that to visit
> Earth, one must carry a "passport". Well, that is how it is done today
> when going from nation to nation, and Hathaway does not seem to
Not "passport". You only need passport/visa at border. The
difference is that people need the explicit premission to stay on
Earth, as well as entering Earth. That premission is not for life, and
will be reviewed when you change job or retire. Or you can be
deported just because federation lowered the population quota. Tell
me which nation does that today.
> "The formation of Earth Fedeation, is based on the understanding that
> Earth and humanity should be destoried together. That's the start of
> Space Colony construction.
That should read "should not be destoried together." That's different
> "But, there are always special case. Federation establish rules to
> allow "essential" personal to stay on Earth.
> The perservers who monitor and manage the wild lifes. The people who
> is necessary to perserve and maintain the tradition of diverse ethnic
> groups. [Notice that Hathaway is on him way to qualify in the first
> Here, we find the main bone of contention with Char and many others.
> That certain people were required to remain behind, or persuaded
> others that they should. Ok, here is my arguement:
That's why I said the "ALL" part is a simplification.
> a) Preservers must remain behind or untold ecological damage will be
> down due to the many animals, etc. that have been taken out of their
> natural habitats would disrupt that of other creatures.
More like monitors than active managements.
> b) Certain ethnic groups today refuse to come into the 20th century,
> so should it come as any surprise that certain people wouldn't want to
> leave their native lands?
I think there were debate on this issue, weither it's out of their
choice or they are required to maintain certain life-style. "Museum
Freman" from "Dune" was anaolgy used at one point.
> c) The one point we can agree about is that the Federation should not
> have any military bases on the planet. However, I can see some of
> their reasoning for this. I mean, many installations are already
> present and it is more cost effective in many cases to simply use
> these rather than build new ones in space.
I don't think those decisions were made out for cost effectiveness.
If Federation had done so, the world in Gundam would be a very
And I don't see Federation bureaucracy in you list, and their
number totally dwarf the people in category A and B.
> "Law do not alway implemented the way of it's orignal ideal. From the
> viewpoint of ordinary people, the possibile destruction of Earth is
> not absolute. The expolitation of the loophole is inevitable.
> The people who born on Earth, can't forget the feeling of gravity. As
> the result, people disregard the law without regard to consquence.
> The desire is understandable."
> What Hathaway is thinking here is that he understands that many people
> don't feel that the destruction of Earth is going to come about if
> they stay, they are afraid to leave their homeworld and that desire to
> remain is understandable. And it agrees with what I said in my
> previous post.
It's just like inoculation. If all the people around you took the
vaccine, and you didn't, you still receive all the benefits of protection
from the epdemic, without the associated risks.
It's ok for one people to take a free ride, and maybe a very small
precentage of the population. But if a sizeable portion of the
population attempt that, a very real public health problem is at hand.
This issue related to Gundam in that like inoculation, removal from
Earth had become mandatory for precisely that reason. The way I
understand your argument, while it's unfair, the people who are
taking the free ride, because their number is small enough not to be
a danger, don't have to be punished. Char and Hathaway believe
otherwise, while different in harshness of the punishment to be
prescribed. I view is between Char and Hathaway.
> "But the sin of human kind, overbreeding to burden Earth to a crisis
> level, is not well understood.
> The space exdous, it the penaty human pay for it. Space Colony ear, is
> not an era of frontia or new development.
> Along with that realization, come frustration. The spacenoids
> naturally want to return to Earth.
> The double sin of humanity, the overbreeding and unsatisfiable demand
> to return to Earth."
> Ah, so here he is saying that the original plan was to relieve
> overpopulation! My belief is upheld! However, those spacenoids that
> want to return "home" are refused. Well, that is understandable, IMO.
You really need to read it again, I will quote it again.
"At the beginning of the exdous, the federation policy is all ethnic
group will migrate equally. No arguments about it."
"But, there are always special case. Federation establish rules to
allow "essential" personal to stay on Earth. "
"Law do not alway implemented the way of it's orignal ideal. From
the viewpoint of ordinary people, the possibile destruction of
Earth is not absolute. The expolitation of the loophole is
Clearly, the orignal the removal of all humanity, with very narrow
exception. Throughts, people who stayed on under the expanded
definition was in violation of the spirit if not the word of the orignal
agreement. Therefor, spacenoids rightfully demand them to be
> Earth is now at a comfortable level of human habitation. I realize it
> is not fair, but neither is a desire to return to the old world like
> this. Visiting should be permitted, but Earth should be maintained as
> a natural reserve. Yes, it would be more fair if everyone, except
> those neccessary as I've said above, left, but it won't happen. Call
> it human nature.
And the cry for justice and punishment for the wrong doer is not
As for the level of humanity is at comfortable level. That's far from
consensous. Since you had watched F91, you should know that
Iron Mask feel that population had been grow to a level that need to
be "pruned", again.
> Here, he seems to be saying that Earth will not recover from
> humanity's overpopulation and destruction of it for at least a couple
> thousand years. I really like your analogy here, and feel it fits
> really well. Here's what I have to say in addition: If some
> knowledgable people are left on Earth, it can help reduce the time
> needed to repair the planet. Also, the dropping of colonies and
Federation elites and military are not in that category.
> asteroids on Earth would not help the repair of the planet, only force
> much of the life on its surface and in its oceans to die. In fact if
> the original Axis was in fact dropped on the planet, it would destroy
> most of the world's life. Axis, and really, a colony if truth be told,
> is what we term a "global-killer". They are objects of sufficient
> enough size, mass, etc. that, if dropped, they would force the
> expulsion of so much dust and debris in the air that all light from
> the sun would be blocked out for years, if not decades. This would
> destroy most, if not all, plant life, and then because tha! t is dead,
> all animal life would end. The atmosphere would change, temperatures
> drop, etc. Life would have to begin again at a very primitive level.
> This is what most believe happened 65 million years ago when the
> dinosaurs and 90% of all other life on the planet was wiped out. Does
> this really seem like Char's, in your own belief's, peaceful tomorrow?
Well, Mammals surived. Even repitiles surived. And those are not
primitive single cell, either. Either way, I doubt that's Char's intent,
but Hathaway's tone make me suspect that what he wants. Just as
the extinction of dinosaour supposely cleared the way for the
mammals to became the dominate speice, the "reshuffling of the
deck" will give the rise to new speice. But I attribute this view more
to Hathaway than to Char.
> Now, if his mission is simply to destroy Earth as a place of
> habitation, it would work. But then again, that doesn't sound like
> perserving or saving the planet, does it? Then again, see what I have
> to say about Char's "double-talk" at the end of this post.
Char himself doesn't took about Earth's enivornment that much
himself. "For those desire, Char Azunable waged war againist
Federation." What's immediately before it? "The double sin of
humanity". So I wil agree with you that Char wasn't aimmed at the
short term improvement of Earth's environment. His aim was to
punish the "sinner" and remove a temptation. Char's view is more
that Earth's problem is due to human activity, once he stopped it, the
Earth would do fine on its own.
> Because of this fact (ie, the use of Earth as a home for only certain
> people, etc.), Char went to war. I have no problem with this either. I
> also don't agree with an elite-only world. If enough people find that
> they disagree with what is being done, that is fine. It is the purpose
> behind the war and the methods used that I disagree with. Char was
> attempting not to remove the restrictions on who lived on Earth, but
> remove or kill all humanity that lived there, so that the survivors of
People can still depart Earth after the Axis drop. There were a lot of
traffic between Space and Earth right after Operation British in
OYW. So it's more like people in the impact point and not much
> In some ways, Lalah Sun was like this, but she did seem to regret many
> of her actions. At least she cried out that she wished Amuro had found
> her first. Then again, maybe Quess was different in the novelization
> of CCA. But!
> I kinda doubt it.
No, Quess is her endearing self in the novel, too.
> As for Hathaway, I've always thought he was a newtype. Was he born on
He denies to be one. He was born on Earth.
> To prolong the life of Earth, humanity has to remove itself to space
> colony. If the law is applied with just manner, the hunters serve
> justice by indict the illegal residents."
> Char believes Earth must be preserved? And to do this, he is willing
> to destroy all life on it (see what I said above about "global
> killers")? I don't see how that is possible myself. Additionally, Char
> said that he would use the nuclear warheads from Luna 2 not only
> because they would accelerate Axis, but also because they would
Decelerate Axis, in fact. The whole point is to prevent it from
burning up too much mass when it enters Earth's atmosphere and
reduce the final impact.
> contaminate the Earth. As for the part about the planet being allowed
> to die with humanity, I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that by
That part should read "Should not", too.
> BTW, isn't the novel 22 chapters long? Any chance of us getting the
> rest anytime soon?
Those are the first volume out of 3. I already release the synopsis
of volume 2 sometime last year. The rest, I don't know.
> >I am merely pointing out that from UC 0093 on, people are hurting
> >because Char failed. To say give federation time and things will
> >change(as some had suggested earlier) for the better won't work,
> >because we already know what happened in the next 100 years.
> Ah, I think you missed what I was trying to say. I meant that the
> Federation should have been given time before Char took his actions.
As for Char should give Federation more chance. I will quote from
the movie again.
Char fought with us along with the anti-Federation group but he
realized how the people on Earth were really like and it made him
I know that.
And that made him decide to put and end to everything."
So even Amuro and Bright(or according to the Gundam Fix, Blight)
realized Char made his decision precisely because he had given
Earthnoids their chances and they blowed it.
> Any chance of getting a synopsis of this story in the future?
I believe Mark Simmon had been promise to do a Gaia Gear
summary for some times.
> What I love is that Char does double talk depending on who he is
> speaking with. When Amuro asks him why he is trying to destroy the
> Earth, he gives the same old speal about it's gravity weighing us
> down. But later, he tells Quess that he is not trying to destroy the
> planet, only make it rest awhile. To the Jion people in his speech, he
It's not like Char had much time to explain to Amuro the subtle
> How can you support an evil action, even if I allow that the end
> result would be a utopia? The ends do not justify the means. I cannot
> express this enough. I for one would not want to live in a utopia that
> came about due to the deaths of several million innocent people and
> the destruction of Earth.
Let's just said I just had my dinner because a chicken was dead,
and I don't think that's because of suicide or nature cause.
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