Roland Thigpen (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Tue, 28 Dec 1999 18:28:33 -0500
On Mon, 27 Dec 1999 22:30:12 -0800 Jim Huang <tyhuang@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>rOn 27 Dec 99, at 9:13, Roland Thigpen wrote:
>Well, we know for a fact that there are many federation military installation on North America, the project impact point in CCA novel.
Granted, but there are also many civilian areas (read several hundred thousand lives, bare minimum) there too. And if the North American grainary was back up and running (ie, the damage done to the fields in 0083 was repaired), then you are also talking about again destroying the food production of much of the world. I'm sorry. I know a army functions on its stomach, but this would not stop many of the Federation soldiers who would simply take supplies from the spacenoids or elsewhere. As for military installations, yes, many would be destroyed. I will grant you that.
>In fact, If you watched First Gundam, you will know that Jion, partly
>lead by Char, tried to invade and destory the MS factory in Jaburo,
>and failed. So it's not an overkill to take Jaburo with colony drop.
>You can find out about the final fall of Jaburo in Zeta gundam,
Sorry, my mistake. I meant to say Zeta. And yes, I do remember the assault on Jabrow during the OYW. I also remember that Char was only driven away because the Gundam was there. What I mean by overkill is that colony not only takes out Jabrow, but anything that happens to be within several thousand kilometers of the drop point. And with the drops causing craters 500 kilometers wide, it would cause damage to the surrounding terrain for at least 1000 kilometers from the impact site, from the energy released there, agreed? Not to mention the debris thrown into the atmosphere (see below).
>Well, some mentioned the world social contract earlier in this trend.
>The spacenoid had hold up their end of the bargin by moving away
>from Earth. And Earthnoids failed their end of the deal. Any
>enforcement action to demand redress, however drastic, can hardly
>be called imposing one's view on other. That's my point.
I don't agree, but I'll be willing to let if drop if we agree to disagree.
>There are a lot more you don't know, too. That's an simplification,
>and more details can be found if you hunt through GML archive to
>find my synopsis of "Senkou no Hathaway".
Never said that there wasn't something I missed. Be that as it may, I also believe that the complete removal of all of humanity from Earth would be a mistake as well. As for the synopsis of "Sekou no Hathaway", I've read over it. Aside from a blatant tainting of your side comments (only those however, I was thankful to see) with your pro-Char "propaganda", I found it quite interesting and informative, although a little hard to understand at points due to some grammatical problems. BTW, in Chapter 8, you ask about the line "Quess Paraya to onajika"? I think it means something like "She seems (or is just) like Quess Paraya.", in case someone else hasn't answered this yet. But I don't know much Japanese, other than what I can look up in a Japanese-English dictionary and a few words. I believe alot of this arguement might be better dealt with in a line by line assessment of Hathaway's thoughts on the formation of the Federation and the space colonization effort, as I believe this !
is what you are referring to above. Here goes:
"Currently, to stay on Earth, it's necessary to carry permit issued by federation government.
That's the result of migration to space colony, to prevent the the marginlization of the immigrants, forced migration is implemented. That's necessary evil."
Here, if I am reading this correctly, is Hathaway taking a series of laws or "official lines" in the first sentence and then expressing his thoughts on the matter in the second. Here, we find that to visit Earth, one must carry a "passport". Well, that is how it is done today when going from nation to nation, and Hathaway does not seem to disagree. And that in the beginning people were forced to leave, and thus forced emmigration was instituted (no real surprise there).
"The formation of Earth Fedeation, is based on the understanding that Earth and humanity should be destoried together. That's the start of Space Colony construction.
At the beginning of the exdous, the federation policy is all ethnic group will migrate equally. No arguments about it."
If I read the first sentence correctly, you mean that the formation of the Earth Federation came about because both Earth and humanity would be destroyed if humanity remained on it. Well, that is true. Overpopulation will cause that. But that is probably not the only thing that is meant here, and I realize that. In Gundam, it seems that it is the newtype's, at least some of them, belief that if humanity, any portion of it, remains on Earth, humanity as a whole will be destroyed. I don't see it that way, because, like Neil, I take it from the sceptic's POV, and would distrust any kind of doomsayer who expoused this kind of view. Unless it is the second coming, I would have trouble believing anyone who said "the end of the world is nigh, but we can avoid it if we all do this". Call me a Doubting Thomas.
"But, there are always special case. Federation establish rules to allow "essential" personal to stay on Earth.
The perservers who monitor and manage the wild lifes. The people who is necessary to perserve and maintain the tradition of diverse ethnic groups. [Notice that Hathaway is on him way to qualify in the first category.]"
Here, we find the main bone of contention with Char and many others. That certain people were required to remain behind, or persuaded others that they should. Ok, here is my arguement:
a) Preservers must remain behind or untold ecological damage will be down due to the many animals, etc. that have been taken out of their natural habitats would disrupt that of other creatures.
b) Certain ethnic groups today refuse to come into the 20th century, so should it come as any surprise that certain people wouldn't want to leave their native lands?
c) The one point we can agree about is that the Federation should not have any military bases on the planet. However, I can see some of their reasoning for this. I mean, many installations are already present and it is more cost effective in many cases to simply use these rather than build new ones in space.
"Law do not alway implemented the way of it's orignal ideal. From the viewpoint of ordinary people, the possibile destruction of Earth is not absolute. The expolitation of the loophole is inevitable.
The people who born on Earth, can't forget the feeling of gravity. As the result, people disregard the law without regard to consquence.
The desire is understandable."
What Hathaway is thinking here is that he understands that many people don't feel that the destruction of Earth is going to come about if they stay, they are afraid to leave their homeworld and that desire to remain is understandable. And it agrees with what I said in my previous post.
"But the sin of human kind, overbreeding to burden Earth to a crisis level, is not well understood.
The space exdous, it the penaty human pay for it. Space Colony ear, is not an era of frontia or new development.
Along with that realization, come frustration. The spacenoids naturally want to return to Earth.
The double sin of humanity, the overbreeding and unsatisfiable demand to return to Earth."
Ah, so here he is saying that the original plan was to relieve overpopulation! My belief is upheld! However, those spacenoids that want to return "home" are refused. Well, that is understandable, IMO. Earth is now at a comfortable level of human habitation. I realize it is not fair, but neither is a desire to return to the old world like this. Visiting should be permitted, but Earth should be maintained as a natural reserve. Yes, it would be more fair if everyone, except those neccessary as I've said above, left, but it won't happen. Call it human nature.
"The Earth won't be able to restore itself for at least couple milleniums. [From this prospective, many the name "Zion" is not that out of character. The points I digests, IMHO, like certain Anti-zionism groups within Jewish community. That they were kicked out of Israel by the will of God for their "sin". And they shouldn't return until they receive notice from God to do so, saying they
had repaid enough. By naming Side 3 "Zion", it serves the purpose to remind spacenoids that "Zion" is no longer on Earth proper. Those are just my speculation. Maybe I read too much into it. But the speculation is a great fun for Gundam fan. Since I am not good at speculation about the technolgies.]"
Here, he seems to be saying that Earth will not recover from humanity's overpopulation and destruction of it for at least a couple thousand years. I really like your analogy here, and feel it fits really well. Here's what I have to say in addition: If some knowledgable people are left on Earth, it can help reduce the time needed to repair the planet. Also, the dropping of colonies and asteroids on Earth would not help the repair of the planet, only force much of the life on its surface and in its oceans to die. In fact if the original Axis was in fact dropped on the planet, it would destroy most of the world's life. Axis, and really, a colony if truth be told, is what we term a "global-killer". They are objects of sufficient enough size, mass, etc. that, if dropped, they would force the expulsion of so much dust and debris in the air that all light from the sun would be blocked out for years, if not decades. This would destroy most, if not all, plant life, and then because tha!
t is dead, all animal life would end. The atmosphere would change, temperatures drop, etc. Life would have to begin again at a very primitive level. This is what most believe happened 65 million years ago when the dinosaurs and 90% of all other life on the planet was wiped out. Does this really seem like Char's, in your own belief's, peaceful tomorrow? Now, if his mission is simply to destroy Earth as a place of habitation, it would work. But then again, that doesn't sound like perserving or saving the planet, does it? Then again, see what I have to say about Char's "double-talk" at the end of this post.
"[Hathaway began to recall tragic event of 93]
For those desire, Char Azunable waged war againist Federation. He was defeated by the overwhelming force of federation. That's the fact of "Char's rebellion"
At that time, Hathaway was aboard his father's warship. He saw the battlefield.
He encounted Quess Paraya. She observe that war with a child's naive eye. Her sense was overwhelmed, caused her death. [Sob, sob.]
Hathaway heard the death cry of his first love, along with the voices from the souls of many other casualities. [Either he went crazy at that time, or he was really a newtype. I will go for the latter. But some of you may feel otherwise.]"
Because of this fact (ie, the use of Earth as a home for only certain people, etc.), Char went to war. I have no problem with this either. I also don't agree with an elite-only world. If enough people find that they disagree with what is being done, that is fine. It is the purpose behind the war and the methods used that I disagree with.
Char was attempting not to remove the restrictions on who lived on Earth, but remove or kill all humanity that lived there, so that the survivors of humanity would become newtypes. But like Hitler, he used his people and twisted their desires to suit his own ends. If the war was for the right to return and not make the planet an elite-only home, that is fine. But we all know what Char was trying to do. Char was a user. He admitted it. The passage seems to indicate that some of the spacenoids wanted to return, but couldn't. So those people began to think if we can't have it, no one will. Char used this and twisted it to his own purposes.
The part about Quess I truly agree with with. She did see war through a child's naive mind. Maybe she should have been shown into a hospital with the injured and the dead to see the real horrors of war and its effects on people. Throughout CCA, she proved herself to be nothing more than a spoiled, arrogant, elitist, snobbish, little baby, who had no idea of the consequences of her actions. Nor did it seem to me that she would have cared had she known (especially since she seemed to sense that her father was in the ship just before she blew it away. At least his image flshed through her mind just then). Sure, she says she felt awful, but she also asked why she would feel that way. She never seemed to realize it was her feeling the deaths of everyone involved. In some ways, Lalah Sun was like this, but she did seem to regret many of her actions. At least she cried out that she wished Amuro had found her first. Then again, maybe Quess was different in the novelization of CCA. But!
I kinda doubt it.
As for Hathaway, I've always thought he was a newtype. Was he born on Earth?
"Based from that, Hathaway learned from Char's personal experience. He agree with Char that Earth has to be perserved and should be allowed to die with humanity.
To prolong the life of Earth, humanity has to remove itself to space colony. If the law is applied with just manner, the hunters serve justice by indict the illegal residents."
Char believes Earth must be preserved? And to do this, he is willing to destroy all life on it (see what I said above about "global killers")? I don't see how that is possible myself. Additionally, Char said that he would use the nuclear warheads from Luna 2 not only because they would accelerate Axis, but also because they would contaminate the Earth. As for the part about the planet being allowed to die with humanity, I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that by removing humanity, Earth and her "children" will die at the same time, only eons later rather than sooner if we remain on planet? Doesn't make much sense to me if the overpopulation and pollution were significantly reduced and steps implemented to remove the effects of what was left.
BTW, isn't the novel 22 chapters long? Any chance of us getting the rest anytime soon?
>I am merely pointing out that from UC 0093 on, people are hurting
>because Char failed. To say give federation time and things will
>change(as some had suggested earlier) for the better won't work,
>because we already know what happened in the next 100 years.
Ah, I think you missed what I was trying to say. I meant that the Federation should have been given time before Char took his actions. As for what happens later, is that any surprise? Char nearly wiped out all life on Earth! Is it any surprise that the Federation would reacte even more harshly against the spacenoids, at least the Jion, than we did against the Germans after World War II? After having two World Wars with that nation, we split it into four sections for several decades and in half for even longer and wouldn't let it do anything without our permission for those decades! Is it any wonder that the Federation would do the same thing to those others whose colony and asteroid drops were nothing more than expanded V1 and V2 rocket attacks on Earth as a whole?
Besides, whose to say just as many, if not more, people would be hurting had he succeeded? Again, I'm not sure I can believe that his vision of the Newtype utopia was the only way to produce a peaceful future.
>Well, I would be interested to read your version of the synoposis.
>Because it's different from what I have. And I have almost the entire
>run of Gaia Gear serialization on Newtype magazine.
>Yes, there is a plan in Gaia Gear to move the Spacenoid elite to
>Earth. But that's not the plan of Newtype or even the spacenoids
>elites. It's the plan by Manhunter(MHA/MaHa), the federation
>agency that's in charge of watching over the population on Earth.
Ok, I admit I might be wrong here. I'm not sure where I read it, but it believe it was on one of the posts to this list. I seem to recall somewhere someone saying that Char was cloned to lead the resistance against their enemies, and that he saw how the newtypes, who had gained the power in time since his death, were now abusing it in multiple ways, and began to fight against them. I have not read or even seen the books, so I don't know the complete story, only what I gathered from other sources.
Any chance of getting a synopsis of this story in the future?
>Show me where you find your quote. I am beginning to get wary of
>this. Go back to the movie, listen to the conversation between him
>and Nanai, and how he views his actions. Especailly his quote,
>"Some one have to bear the sin of humanity."(i.e. him)
Ok, I've done that. I admit, I was mistaken when I said he said his methods were pure. It was more implied throughout his many lines, at least in my mind. I also noticed during the conversation above that Char never answered Nanai's question about whether or not dropping Axis on Earth was evil. However, he pretty much answered this earlier when, after the meeting in which the Neo-Jion purchase Axis, he mentally seeks out Amuro and says, "Amuro, I'm doing something evil. If you are nearby, seek me out." By doing this, he admits to himself at least that his actions are wrong. Nanai also asks if he is doing this just to get back at Amuro. He asks her in return if she thinks he is such a small man. Yet a couple seconds later he says "People who are too much alike have no choice but to hate each other." indicating that he is in fact doing this for this reason. And then in the final battle, he seems (to me at least) to indicate that many of his actions were in fact taken out of an a!
ttempt to gain vengeance for Lalah's death, not to advance the creation of newtype humanity. IMO, Char was pure by CCA. Pure evil is still pure. He even had the balls to admit it to himself.
What I love is that Char does double talk depending on who he is speaking with. When Amuro asks him why he is trying to destroy the Earth, he gives the same old speal about it's gravity weighing us down. But later, he tells Quess that he is not trying to destroy the planet, only make it rest awhile. To the Jion people in his speech, he says that he is using the Axis drop to discipline the people on Earth (to which I ask the question Amuro asks again, who is he to judge humanity?). Then to Gyunei, he says his only purpose is in rebuidling Neo-Jion and defeating Amuro (although granted, this last one was when Gyunei confronted him about his intentions for Quess). And then in the final battle, when he is revealing his true emotions to Amuro, he says that he doesn't "think about saving the world and such!" Such double-talk has undoubtable led many to believe what they will of Char's purposes and thus make him fit their perceptions. However, people do that quite often with historic!
Here's my final point: Evil actions, even those taken in pursuit of a "good" goal, are still evil. Char admits his actions are evil, Nanai expresses doubts about the rightness of the action, the Federation undoubtably view it as evil, and in the end, even some of those Neo-Jion soldiers who had been fighting to bring about this moment realize the evil of it in time to try to do something about it (like Oscar Schindler during WWII). Char has taken it upon hiself to punish mankind for his sins and prevent Earth's gravity from destroying mankind (I think a better term here might be holding back humanity). How can you support an evil action, even if I allow that the end result would be a utopia? The ends do not justify the means. I cannot express this enough. I for one would not want to live in a utopia that came about due to the deaths of several million innocent people and the destruction of Earth.
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