Roland Thigpen (jenius@unspacy.org)
Mon, 27 Dec 1999 02:05:18 -0500


On Mon, 27 Dec 1999 18:11:13 +1300 Tomonaga <Tomonaga@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>I would like to make one final comment on this lengthy discussion...
>
>The main sticking points seem to arise because Roland and Neil associate Newtypes with Aryans, and have problems with 'Newtypes leading humanity into a new era theory' because they relate this to 'Master Race leading humanity into a new era theory'. But I say Newtypes are not Aryans and they cannot be held in this light.
>

Anyone who views that they are better than anyone else simply because of a luck of genetics at birth can be held in this light, be they white, black, or yellow, old type or new type. You might call this a simplistic view, but I feel it is more of a realistic one.

And I do not associate all newtypes with Aryans. Just like in all people, there are those who hold themselves better than others because of racism, bigotry, etc. But these are usually a minority of the faction. It is when this minority gains the biggest voice or a majority and convince others that their view is the right and only view that trouble begins.

If you want to bring someone into a new age and they agree with you, that's fine. It is when a minority begins attempting to subject its new and better tomorrow on everyone, willing or not and in a violent way, that you have a problem that must be addressed. They may be right about their beliefs and their tomorrow might indeed be better, but that does not give them the right to ram it down everyone's throat. The Bible, given to us by God, says that a new and better tomorrow will come after the Armageddon. Does this mean when should ignite a nuclear war tomorrow, so that the better world comes about all the quicker?

>If we were talking about the real world and a small group of 'we are superior' people claimed to possess special abilities decided to lead mankind to a new era of peace and harmony, then ofcourse I would object and produce the Hitler-Aryan argument such as you have done. But this is because of my sceptism of their claims and abilities...
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>However it is evident from UC stories that Newtype ability is real, and people actually exist in the UC universe with paranormal abilities which for better or worse gives them heightened awareness of the environement above and beyond those of normal humans. I accept their abilities in their universe, but I guess some people watching the anime find it hard accept such a notion despite it being only a work of fiction.
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I hope you are not saying that we don't realize this is fiction. Of course it is! But it is also an examination of people's perceptions and the human condition. (see my final paragraph below)

However, if I don't believe their views to be correct, why should I be subjected to them if they are not the legitimate government? You'll notice that many newtypes, Amuro for instance, tried to change the Federal government from within. This is the way to go. You do not wage what amounts to race war.

>And as in the example of the people stranded in volcanic ash fallout, the ability to see through the ash to safety should be undeniable. But it seems that Roland and Neil find it hard to believe that 1) they can see through it at all, and 2) what they are seeing can't be relied upon.
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No, not at all. But your analogy does not completely work in this case. What Char is attempting is seeing through time, people's minds, etc. The only one that can do that is God. Anyone else claiming to do so is either a fanatic or a madman. I realize you meant your metaphor in a metaphysical way, but you simply can't do that. The future is ever changing, and this foresight can easily change in an instant depending on someone's actions. Only God can perform the actions you are attempting to attribute to Char. And he (or she, gotta be politically correct) is definately not Char.

I have an example, that some here might find amusing. In one Xena episode, there is a religious warrior, who after capturing enemy soldiers attempts to draw them into her "Way of the Light" because she sees that as the path to peace and happiness for all. Any that do not change are put to death (sorry, their souls are liberated). That is what Char is doing in CCA. Because the people on Earth refuse to follow his path, he has condemned them to death to remove them from the picture and prevent them from hindering humanity's evolution. Sure some will survive, but they will be forced to leave their homes because Earth will be unlivable for decades to come. And even leaving is a risky proposition. You seem to underestimate what a nuclear winter entails. There would be virtually no way off Earth after this has begun. Those that survive are condemned to a long, slow tortous death. Evil actions taken for the best of reasons are still evil. The ends do not justify the means.

>If we accept the fact that they can see through the ash, what is wrong with them leading the way out for the rest of the group? What would you do if you had the ability in that same situation ? Doing nothing meant you were all stuck there for a long long time and die. Half of the people believed you , and the other half refuse to move but you needed everyone's help to move the obstacle blocking the way out. I think this situation closely parallels the situation Char felt he was in. If you didn't read the example carefully the first time, please do.
>

I'm sorry. Religious cultists have been following the same line of thought for years. The closest analogy to Char today would most likely be one of these or any other religious leader who claims he has a direct link to God other than the one we all share.

Besides, whose to say a wind won't pick up and blow the ash away? Or some other miracle might happen. Or perhaps there is yet another way to get out of the area? Just because one person sees one way out of a situation, it does not follow that that is the ONLY way. I followed your analogy very carefully, but I'm not sure it really fits in this case. Like I said, you are assuming that there is only way out, ie, that newtypes are definately the next step of human evolution. This may be, it may not. As I think I've said before, there are numerous instances of evolutionary changes that resulted in dead ends. For all we know, the newtype might be such a dead end. Then again, they might be Cro-Magnon man to our Neaderthal.

If I had the ability, I would do like Amuro and attempt to persuade through my actions and words the right way, not through Char's choice of violence. I believe like Amuro that Char gave up on humanity, at least the portion living on Earth.

>The Newtypes just want to usher in an era of peace and harmony. They want to end all the fighting and the senseless loss of lives for the betterment of mankind. They have no sinister agendas, they have no desire to restrict people's freedom in anyway, or dictate how people should live. But I have to admit if I heard a real political movement making these types of claims, I would immediately right them off ... : -)
>

I'm sorry, I call the deliberate and systematic destruction of a planet's ecosystem and hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of its inhabitants a sinister agenda. And if they didn't want to restrict people's freedom, why attack Earth? What about a person's freedom to live there if they so chose? I know the the Feddies closed it off, but there are other, better ways around that than a blasted scorched earth policy.

And if you would write off a political movement doing this, how can you realistically back Char?

Oh, and that part about wanting to end fighting and senseless loss of life. Yeah, Char is stopping fighting on Earth and bringing peace there. The peace of the grave. There wouldn't be any more fighting or death if everyone was dead either. Does that mean we should kill everyone? That is also a solution.

>Only a couple of newtypes, Hamarn and Scirocco, as well as the oldtypes Giren, Kishiria, and Gremi, felt they were superior, and paralleled the Hitler-Aryan vision, but Char only wanted to allow mankind to change. I think the difference is there, granted he is treading a fine line but the ditinction is more than subtle. I am sure it is only a fine line between being a monstrous dictator and being a great visionary leader. Being a big fan of Char, I just don't want to see him coloured with the same brush as the rest of the monsters.
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Char, torwards the end asked Amuro how he could "let his talent be used by petty men" and said that "Man should punish mankind for the sins we've committed." I'm sorry, but to me that seems like he is saying he is so much better than everyone else that he should be humanity's judge, jury and executioner. I liked Char too originally, but his actions in CCA turn him into a monster who was forcing mankind to change no matter the costs. He was an honorable man to begin with, but in the end, I cannot approve of his actions or the reasons behind them.

One last thing, and completely off this topic. You said earlier that you "guess some people watching the anime find it hard accept such a notion despite it being only a work of fiction." You seem to think we cannot suspend our disbelief of their (newtypes') abilities (if this assumption is not the case, I apologize), and that is why I have said what I said in this thread. This is not the case. I know that in Gundam they have these powers. I have no problem with that. Hell, I'm a big fan of the X-men comics, and the main characters in there all have powers even more fantastic than those in Gundam newtypes. I also realize that, as in real life, there are good and bad in the newtype race. I said what I have said in this thread because I see anime as yet another forum to discuss things like the human condition (and you can't watch things like Evangelion or Serial Experiments Lain without delving into this), beliefs on war, philosphy, etc. This is primarily what this conversation h!
as evolved into. I admit, many people might find it strange to have this kind of debate over a thing the uniformed consider cartoons, but this is one of the best things to do it with. With anime, you are able to bring about certain ideas and concepts that can't be done, at least not as easily, through live action series, books, or other mediums. This is in one way that I choose the anime I watch. Sure I get some videos just for the comedy value or for some other reason, but most I choose or the things they make me think about and consider, as well as the insights it can give me into another culture and/or belief system. Shows like Gundam, those anime by Matsumoto Leiji, Evangelion, even ones like Nadesico or Fushigi Yuugi jsut to name a few, make you think to fully understand and appreciate them. These kind of discussions allow even further extension of this. Several of my friends and I have loads of fun debating the meaning of anime, just as an English major might debate the !
meaning of a book or poem. I've truly enjoyed this series o!
f conversations. Thanks!

Roland

BTW, if my reference to God or the Bible offended anyone on this list, I apologize. I tend to be somewhat vocal in my religious beliefs and have no qualms about including this in my conversations if I feel that the reference is apropriate and warrented. This being said, I also attempt to avoid it if possible so that no hard feelings are created. Please do not take what I said about God above as an attempt to press my beliefs on anyone. They are simply how I feel, and a part of how I think. I realize that many people take their religious beliefs, or lack thereof, very seriously and have no wish to create any enemies or ill will because of a religious difference.

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