Roland Thigpen (jenius@unspacy.org)
Sun, 26 Dec 1999 19:41:46 -0500


Well written and essentially what I was trying to say except at a few points. I'll only speak on those, as I agree with what Neil said on the rest.

On Sun, 26 Dec 1999 18:15:55 -0500 Neil Baumgardner <nbaumgardner@phillips.com> wrote:
*snip*
free themselves. Th=
>e French Revolution on the other hand....
>

If I knew more about that Revolution than I do, I would probably have used that one. Thanks Neil.

*snip*
>> I am suggesting that in the context of the UC universe, Char had good r=
>eason for doing what he did and his actions are in no way a radical depar=
>ture to his beliefs and philosophy in the earlier series.
>
>I'm still not convinced that he didn't have a sort of 'leap of faith,' bu=
>t without firm evidence on my side (as yet), I'll concede this one for no=
>w.
>

I'm still not sure that it wasn't in some ways at least a major departure from the actions he took in previous Gundams. Even if he did fire on several tens or even hundreds or thousands of Jion troops at the end of Zeta, he was firing on soldiers, who knew the cost of getting involved in the fight, not making war on civilians. In the other Gundam I've seen with Char, he never made total war on civilians, at least not that I remember. Still, as Neil said, I haven't seen all of Zeta, or even anything of the original series except the movie compilations, so I will agree to withhold my final judgement until that time.

*snip*
>> Mankind has disrupted nature and have/and are continuing to destroy the=
> Earth's environment.
>
>Nature as he sees it.
>

Ah, Char, the grand Eco-Terrorist. I may agree that there are some terrible things we did to Earth, but wasn't that in part why so many people were sent to live in space? I seem to recall that being mentioned somewhere. Although I freely admit, I might be wrong on this one.

*snip*
>e UC series. All the newtypes realised that as long as mankind was attach=
>ed to Earth, this could not be achieved. Transformation into newtypes re=
>quires fully embracing space and to be completely free in mind,spirit, a=
>nd body from Earth's gravity.
>
>Peace and harmony at what price? You know, there probably would have been=
> a lot of peace and harmony if Hitler won WWII and ruled the Earth. The q=
>uestion must always be peace and harmony for whom?
>

And my question is, whose to say that newtypes are truly better than normal humans? Or that a reverence for our mother planet is bad simply because it hinders the evolution of mankind into the supposed better man, the newtype? Like Neil says, this is just one group trying to impose their views on everyone else, no matter the consequences.

Hitler and Nazi Germany believed that the Aryan race was the natural and evolutionary leader of mankind. Were they any more right than Char?

*snip*
>> And also don't forget that each individual colony is a 'world' of its o=
>wn. How many of these worlds would be lost in another all out war ? Is =

How many were lost in the OYW? How much of the Earth's population? Everything I saw said that half the populations of both sides died! Is freedom from a government worth that kind of mass murder? War is not supposed to be waged on civilians. Sure, they can get caught in the crossfire, and that is a tragedy, but both sides have repeatedly destroyed entire civilian communities simply to get at a few soldiers. That kind of savagery is what condemned nations like Nazi Germany and the Roman Empire.

rth 'world' more valuable than a colony 'world' ? There is no longe=
>r an imbalance in military technology that existed in 0079, Char's not st=
>upid, he knows he can't take on the Earth Federation and come out on top,=
> there simply are too many Federation forces.
>>
>> So what could he have done ? How could he force the Federation to decla=
>re the independence of the colonies without starting and winning an all o=
>ut war?
>
>History is replete with examples of freedom triumphing over oppression. T=
>hrough civil disobedience, continual rebellion, etc, it could have been d=
>one. Don't tell ne the Federation has the resources to perpetually rule o=
>ver hundreds of colonies (no, that's not imperial overstretch ;) against =
>their will. The Federation would fatigue, not be able to stand the casual=
>ties, and eventually give in. It might take a while, but it would happen.=
>
>

The problem was Char wasn't willing to allow for this time. He wanted freedom now, and at any price, no matter how steep. The same could have and has been said for many other tyrants throughout history. As Neil pointed out, there were many other choices that could have been made. Char made the one that garnered the most immediate attention for himself and his cause. This choice (making war) doesn't make him a madman, but his method of conducting the war does.

*snip*
>who needs to be put down and put down hard' and contrary to Char from 007=
>9 and Z?
>
>To the first, probably yes, to the second, maybe not.
>

Like I said before, I'll hold off my absolute final judgement on the latter until I have seen everything, but as it stands now, I still say something within him has changed. Whether or not that is from some kind of brain damage or psychological damage or simply from a change in his views of the universe, I'll let drop from our debates...for now. But some of his lines in CCA, such as "...humans left on Earth are just fleas in the sand..." or "Man must punish mankind for the sins we've committed." lead me to believe he has definately changed from the man he was before. Whether it was from brain damage or from what Amuro termed as "giving up on humanity", or from something completely different, I'll let rest. Granted, my translation of the movie might have somehow perverted my perceptions of his actions and thoughts. If you have a better english translation, by all means let me know where I can find it and I will give it all due consideration.

*snip*
>> Char might have been slightly misguided, but his motives and intentions=
> were pure..Amuro knew this too.
>
>Pure to whom? Pure to whom? Char, Amuro and a few million?

If that many at the time. Hitler could have also argued that his motives and intentions were pure. In fact, many tyrants took actions they felt were for the purest of reasons. Does that make those selfsame actions right or good? No.

>Also, if Amuro=
> knew this, what was with the debate between the two of them at the end o=
>f CCA?
>
>Neil Baumgardner
>
>

I believe what I just said above, covers my views on this part.

Roland

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