Robert Ludvig (
Sun, 26 Dec 1999 15:35:03 PST

Man, I dont think Ive ever seen anyone overanalyze an anime like this! ;)
> > <snip>Char also has no intention of ruling over the human race or
>moulding it into his own vision. It is his belief that the newtypes lead
>the way, but once humanity has taken that next step, his responsibility has
>been fulfilled. He is merely trying to allow nature to take it's course.
>But its nature as he sees it. His 'belief.' What evidence is there that
>Newtypes are the 'chosen people.' Smacks of elitism to me.
> > In the UC world, newtypes do exist, whether they are officially
>acknowledged by the Earth's governing body or not. Newtypes have an
>awareness of people and humanity that normal people can never have. It is
>not their egotistical belief that they understand the situation best, but
>reality that they do understand the situation best. The Earth Federation
>'oldtypes' cannot accept this and will not tolerate this. There existence
>is undeniable yet there are many Earthnoids who refuse to believe and
>enforce this belief, simply because of a lack of empirical data.
>Coming myself from a democratic tradition, I cannot accept this. Basically,
>even if they do 'understand the situation best,' doesn't mean they should
>lead. The same argument could be made today for restricting the franchise
>to only the upper crust, educated populace who 'understand the situation
>best.' However, again, from the past 150+ years of liberal (in the old
>sense of the word) democratic tradition, the people 'ruled over' are the
>ones who should have the last say. John Locke, Social Contract, etc.
> > What if before going to war the Americans had the ability/opportunity
>to take out the leadership structure of the British Empire with relatively
>few casualties ? and at the same time not only free themselves from British
>rule but free the rest of the British Empire as well...
>I would tend to believe they would not have on two points. One, the idea of
>such political assassinations was abhorrent at the time. Two, due the
>isolationist nature of the country at the time, they would not have taken
>it upon themselves to take such an action on the behalf of the other ruled
>peoples. It was up to those other ruled peoples to free themselves. The
>French Revolution on the other hand....
> > You suggest an alternative but the alternative results in just as much,
>if not more widespread loss of lives and destruction. The loss of lives is
>inevitable. If the status quo was unacceptable, and you actually cared
>about people's lives, you have to consider picking the option with the
>least casualty,destruction, and disruption to normal life. All newtypes
>wish to end war, death, and suffering for good, Char is no exception.
>Sorry, cant agree to the genocide of millions (at the least), many of whom
>are innocents, for the sake of a few thousands.
> > I am suggesting that in the context of the UC universe, Char had good
>reason for doing what he did and his actions are in no way a radical
>departure to his beliefs and philosophy in the earlier series.
>I'm still not convinced that he didn't have a sort of 'leap of faith,' but
>without firm evidence on my side (as yet), I'll concede this one for now.
> > It seems though that if you were making the decisions at the time of the
>American revolution, America's independece would have been set back another
>generation, since remaining under British rule would have been the
>peaceful option.
>Nope, totally different. How many people in Great Britain were killed as a
>result of the American Revolution: not many if at all, probably none. The
>revolutionaries defeated the British troops on American soil. Certainly,
>there were British loyalists (or 'tories'), and they were forced to join
>the new consensus. The equivalent would be freeing Side 3, not sending
>colonies to Earth. That's the Gundam equivalent of chem-warhead bearing
>Scud missiles.
> > Somebody, at some point has to make the 'dirty' decision. Difficult
>decision are priviledge of high rank and office and when involving matters
>of life and death, are not taken lightly. Everytime the President of the
>United States orders a military strike, he has ordered people on the other
>side of the world to their deaths. But if the security of the American
>people is at stake he will do so...regardless of how many lives will be
>lost, and I am sure in every case, in consideration of the people's lives,
>he chooses the option which achieves the goals and minimises casualties.
>True, but generally, we do not commit wholesale destruction of civilian
>areas under any circumstances (now awaiting very OT Kosovo debate to
> > <snip>
> >
> > To use your American revolution analogy, putting aside political
>regimes, The Earth federation becomes the British Empire and Side 3 is
>America. At the heart of Zeon movement is the desire for spacenoids to be
>independent from Earth rule.
>Actually, I would say Zeon was more like the French revolution, which
>sought to expand the revolutions against the monarchies across Europe.
>Similarly, Zeon sough to expand its spacenoid freedom to other colonies,
>whether they wanted it or not. Note that much of the Gundam sage is Side 3
>vs Earth, with the moon and other colonies saying 'just leave us alone,
>take it elsewhere.' ZZ was a very good example of the other colonies
>indifference to the Zeon ideology. Zeon was also very much like the French
>revolution in terms of its ruthlessness (reign of terror, colony gassings).
> > Char wasn't trying to force anybody's way of thinking. Like I said,
>newtypes have the ability to see things well beyond the boundaries of
>normal people.
>Again, they way _they_ see it. Until they form a majority, its still a
>minority trying to impose its beliefs on the majority. Heck, where's the
>evidence that what they 'see' is the true future?
> > It is like two groups of people stranded together in a volcanic ash
>fallout. The volcanic ash in the air is so thick that people can only see a
>few feet in front of them. Lets just call the two groups A and B. One
>person, 'Char', a member of group B has the ability to see right through
>the ash and lead the way to safety. People convince 'Char' that he must
>step forward and accept the responsibility of leading the people to safety.
> Most people in group B will follow 'Char', and so will some people in
>Group A. But the leader in group A, let us call him 'Fed' is a powerfully
>built mountain of a man and is very vocal and sceptical of 'Char's ability
>and insist they stay put as he can detect no sign of danger, and moving
>around foolishly will probably get everyone killed. Many in Group A do not
>want to show any disrespect or have the courage to go against 'Fed' so they
>stay put. Let us call this place 'Earth'.
>Reminds me a lot more of Plato's analogy of the people trapped in the cave,
>who believe that the real world is the shadows they see, since they have no
>light. Who's to say that Char is right, rather than seeing what he
>'believes' to be the truth?
> > <snip>
>All dependent on the assumption that Char and his group truly sees the
> > I think you misinterpret what Char was trying to do. As in the example
>given and like I said before 'Char' wasn't trying to slaughter anyone on
>Earth, he was trying to save and free everyone.
>Sounds a lot more like Hitler in his bunker in 1945 sentencing the German
>people to pointless destruction because they were not good enough to rule.
>Very Darwinian - only the 'free' survive, with the weak destroyed.
> > People on Earth had the ability to move to space in the billions, most
>of them would have fled to space unharmed.
>Most of them would be already dead.
> > Many defenceless spacenoids were hunted and killed in the miillions by
>Titans an arm of the Federation military especially created to put down any
>independece movements. Londo Bell is a more humane version of Titans, but
>still it exists to put an end to the Zeon /spacenoids independence
>movements. The existence of such a branch of service is an indication that
>the Federation will not tolerate any colonies from declaring independence.
>To quash rebellion is the nature of any government, its responsibility in
>fact. Striking the balance is where the difficulty lays. Is this a 'Waco
>rebellion,' a small minority of self-justified people, or a true oppressed
>group. The difference often is in the tactics exercised by the government.
>In this case, I would tend to agree it was the latter, the Federation
>oppressing Side 3/Newtypes (notice there is a difference). Side 3 was
>justified in its rebellion and even independence if it so wished, taking
>that war to innocents on Earth is not.
> > True, but you still had to go to war and accept widespread destruction
>and heavy casualties on all sides which you stated was not worth the price
>of freedom or independece.
>I don't think that was his intent. To sacrifice yourself and 'defeat' the
>instruments that oppress you is justified, to murder their families is not.
> > Again Char wasn't trying to exterminate anyone.
>Still the end result.
> > Mankind has disrupted nature and have/and are continuing to destroy the
>Earth's environment.
>Nature as he sees it.
> > But independence of the colonies from Earth was not the only thing Char
>was trying to achieve. Leading the human race to an era of peace and
>harmony was his primary goal and is the goal of many newtypes depicted in
>the UC series. All the newtypes realised that as long as mankind was
>attached to Earth, this could not be achieved. Transformation into
>newtypes requires fully embracing space and to be completely free in
>mind,spirit, and body from Earth's gravity.
>Peace and harmony at what price? You know, there probably would have been a
>lot of peace and harmony if Hitler won WWII and ruled the Earth. The
>question must always be peace and harmony for whom?
> > Your suggestion that the colonies fight for their freedom independently
>certainly sits better than dropping an asteroid on Earth but you forget
>that the colony defence forces are virtually ineffective and are ill
>prepared for waging a war against the mighty Federation. Even with Side3
>which initially possessed great technological military advantage over the
>Federation forces succombed after one year, followed by the failures of
>two Axis/Neo Zeon movements lead by Hamarn and Gremi.
>So what you're essentially saying is, the ends justify the means.
> > And also don't forget that each individual colony is a 'world' of its
>own. How many of these worlds would be lost in another all out war ? Is
>the Earth 'world' more valuable than a colony 'world' ? There is no longer
>an imbalance in military technology that existed in 0079, Char's not
>stupid, he knows he can't take on the Earth Federation and come out on top,
>there simply are too many Federation forces.
> >
> > So what could he have done ? How could he force the Federation to
>declare the independence of the colonies without starting and winning an
>all out war?
>History is replete with examples of freedom triumphing over oppression.
>Through civil disobedience, continual rebellion, etc, it could have been
>done. Don't tell ne the Federation has the resources to perpetually rule
>over hundreds of colonies (no, that's not imperial overstretch ;) against
>their will. The Federation would fatigue, not be able to stand the
>casualties, and eventually give in. It might take a while, but it would
> > Or alternatively what could he do to make the Federation a space based
>organisation so that space based colony life is fully understood and
>Revolution from within is definitely the preferred solution as long as the
>methods of government will allow for it.
> > How could he set humanity free from the grasp of Earth's gravity to set
>in motion the complete transformation of mankind into newtypes ?
>More demagoguery.
> > Was Char's attempt at dropping an asteroid on Earth, to force the
>remaining people and the Federation to move to space an action of a 'mad
>dog who needs to be put down and put down hard' and contrary to Char from
>0079 and Z?
>To the first, probably yes, to the second, maybe not.
> > Char might have been slightly misguided, but his motives and intentions
>were pure..Amuro knew this too.
>Pure to whom? Pure to whom? Char, Amuro and a few million? Also, if Amuro
>knew this, what was with the debate between the two of them at the end of
>Neil Baumgardner
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