Edward Ju (gundam@loop.com)
Fri, 1 Oct 1999 17:58:45 -0700

>Well, I'm not really arguing for argument's sake so much as trying to find
>out how you justify claiming that an industrial designer is incapable of
>creating mechanical designs (basically your original statement). And you
>still haven't explained that. Whether he did in Turn A's case with any of
>those mechs is besides the point.

My original statement stated that one's talent for industrial design does
not equate to the ability for mechanical designs, and I believe this does
not preclude it entirely as you've interpreted it to be so. If one's
knack in industrial design gives him similar degree of ability in mechanical
design, then I fail to see the need for two labels if they are essentially
the same thing, which seems to be the case you are making.

>> Let's not detract from the issue here. I am talking about the Flat, not the
>> Turn A, and I did not cite Zeta Gundam as a basis of comparison to support
>> my argument. -Z- is the most vocal supporter of Zeta, so don't put words in
>> my mouth now. But since we're arguing for argument's sake now, I will
>>go for
>> it some more... most of the ones from Zeta you are looking at are probably
>> space combat ones, which did not have to fight within the restraints of the
>> atmosphere and earth gravity, thus their pointy feet is less of a problem
>> than for the Flat, which was designed to be entry-capable and therefore
>> should have taken such factors into consideration, despite its being a Moon
>> Race produced suit. If the Zeon engineers could build amphibious suits
>> when they've spent most of their lives in a space colony, then there is no
>> excuse for a Moon Race engineer to not be aware of the factors involved in
>> operating a suit within the earth atmosphere, if they were serious on
>> returning to earth and were prepared to fight for it.
>And with no data to back up what you said about the Flat you still say that
>thing stretches believability too far. Back it up. Not just with "Aw,
>come on, just look at," but something more.

You know, the last time I backed something up, I was flamed for being
rude and underestimating one's IQ...

This is going to sound like "Aw, come on, just look at it," but it doesn't
take a rocket scientist to see that for the same amount of mass/weight,
having a bigger ground-contacting surface means less stress and gravitational
force is being applied to the ground on which the object rests. This is
what I learned in junior high, I thought it'd be obvious. The best example
I can think of now is, say, you wrestle with a girl from the office who's
wearing high heels and you are wearing your sneakers. I don't care how
physically built she is (analogous to the stats of the MS), the simple fact
that she's wearing high heels puts her at a major disadvantage which you can
exploit. And no engineer in their right mind would design something with
such a critical flaw that'd directly interefere with the unit's primary
purpose, which is combat.

>And if all those designs from
>Z Gundam just happen to be for space combat what do they need fully working
>legs and feet for?

Well... they do need to dock on the carrier ship's deck, don't they?
Would landing gears make you happy instead? And am I being rude or
sarcastic for making this statement? Just a random thought...

>Maybe you're arguing for argument's sake, but I'd still
>like to see you back up what you said. Show me where the Flat's feet would
>not work. Maybe in a swamp, sure, but in a city or hard earth conditions,
>what then?

So the Flat is now an environment-specific unit, not a general purpose suit
like most MS should be? "What? We're fighting in the city today? Just
drop some Flats there, since they are no good in the swamps!" Even limiting
the flat to fighting in the city, on the cement and asphalt surface within a
city (and this is in the low-tech, 19-century-like world in which the Flat
appears in, not the high-tech future of Zeta where you have all kinds of
hyper durable alloys) having 22.3 ton (the Flat's weight as cited on the
Bandai kit's box - there's the data you've been asking for) concentrated
on a single point while the suit is in combat (which will add dramatically
to the 22.3 ton upon contact with the surface because of the acceleration
from moving limbs/body and action/reaction from fighting) is enough to crack
any known street surface.

Now it's my turn to ask you to back up your argument. Show me a street in
today's world, in the 20th century, where having over 22.3 tons of stress
being slammed upon its surface, in the form of two tiny squares and two lines
(the only ground-contacting surface on the Flat), or even less (if the Flat
touches the ground with only one of its two feet or the toes section of one
foot) will not crack or even destroy it. And those are some tougher-than-
diamond alloy the Flat is using not to deform its fragile heels while the
suit is in action.

>I mean, I don't care what you cite as a reason for your
>conclusion if there enough examples of high-heeled mechs or mechs with
>feet that could sink into the earth such that you shouldn't single out Mead
>as being so far and away shittier than other mech designers.

Now I am really beginning to wonder if you've seen the Flat at all (the
apparitions of the Richie Ramos chogokin Kado Senshi fiasco rearing its
ugly head...), because the way the two-pronged foot the Zeta suits sport
mostly modeled after eagles and other inspirations from nature (which are
time-tested, hint hint), as opposed to the Flat's foot, which bears no
resemblance the above other than being two-pronged.


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